Thriving Remotely with Brent Schlenker and Toddi Norum

Luis Malbas  
And that I think my first question that I wanted to ask the both of you is like, why we're actually talking about this, why we're having to talk about workplace happiness and navigating burnout. And, you know, and just being a modern worker, and sort of the lives that we lead. So that's gonna be my first question. But before we get going on that, I would like to like you guys to introduce yourself a little bit. So why don't we start with you tidy? Yeah.

Toddi Norum  
So Todd, in Rome. And actually, I think I've been a member of the community since 2017. So almost didn't fit away back. And frankly, this community has been a lifeline for me. You know, a lot of people have been talking about burnout recently. And I think post COVID, we've all had just kind of like our lives turned upside down and had to rethink work, right? So yeah, that's, that's me, I am actually currently just switched from working for a defense contractor. And now I'm back in the commercial space. And I really like it, I work hybrid, actually. But there's still, you know, still that that struggle going on in my life of, you know, like, what excites me about work these days, you know, and I think a lot of that has to do post COVID. And thinking, you know, what matters, you know, what matters, and I still care a lot about work. So, you know, I want to navigate through it and figure out how to how to get on the other side and still be excited by work. So. Okay, all right. How

Luis Malbas  
about you, let's, let's hear your story, Brent?

Brent Schlenker  
Well, we don't we don't have a whole lot of time. And, and it's been a while since I've been here, but you guys probably remember how I roll. So cut me off. If I start going too long. But been in the industry for a super long time, I'll just leave it at that worked in pretty much all of the different positions you can possibly imagine inside of learning and development industry. From from the entry level stuff up to managing teams, building teams, and being a part of working in the vendor community as well as leading DevLearn for eLearning Guild where I met Luis many, many moons ago back in our early days. 2005 2006, something like that. And yeah, I've been working from home for the vast majority of my careers. So when, when, when COVID hit, didn't change my life workwise at all. And that was kind of the odd thing for me. But what I quickly realized was, Oh, everybody else is struggling with this, I can probably help. And so. So I did a lot of that over COVID helping people make that transition, and, you know, coaching people through that and whatnot. So I learned a lot. And I've learned a lot about myself over the last 30 years doing this working from home things. So so lots lots of stories to share. I hope I hope it's beneficial.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, yeah. So the reason that we're that, you know, we've kind of come together to talk about this was one, Brent, you posted that, that link to or that reference to Allison Rosset from TLD C 16. And that wonderful keynote that she did way back when, I guess seven years ago, and, and so that really, you know, sort of was a very timely post, because at the same time Totti, we were talking to Julius Giulia, and you know, just talking about workplace Well, mental health and just well being and burnout and all of that. And I was actually seeing some of those types of conversations happening within the community, and also just in other places, Reddit and LinkedIn, it just seems like this time of year, it's especially, I guess, they call it kind of those seasonal lows, right? Maybe it was like pre Thanksgiving, people are sort of starting to feel that and also, just the climate overall with the economy and, and the job market is really, really challenging right now. So hence, we're having this conversation. And so we have just a series of slides that that we had prepared, where we're going to just sort of discuss some of these things that we're seeing. And also, you know, just ask Tati and Brent about some of their own experiences with remote work and mental health, well being and then, you know, like burnout. So, Brett, let's start with you. Your personal experiences with burnout.

Brent Schlenker  
Yeah, I don't. I like to think I don't burn out much. But I think I probably have burned out multiple times and just didn't know it. But I like to think of it more as being bored out. So I it's like a, it's like the precursor right. It's the tiny little symptom that that I learned to sense over the years. It's like, when I'm starting to feel I don't know bored is the right term. but maybe not inspired, like Todd was mentioning and not not just not having that internal motivation to do whatever. But I still, you know, you still plow ahead every single day. To me, I equate that more to boredom than to burn out because there's just when there starts to be more other things that I'd rather be doing than the work thing. That's when I know I'm probably headed down a bad path from a work experience. And so can I be real?

Luis Malbas  
Can I ask you? Did you ever experience burnout when you read Intel?

Brent Schlenker  
Yeah, I think that was probably the first place where, you know, I think I think they invented burnout, I think vented the, the, it was just very intense. Everything there was intense. I think I felt the burnout. After when I got close to my 10 years, I had a plan to get out at 10 years, I got out about six months early. And I was I think, I think that was just because of the boredom I'm, I discovered I wasn't a big, giant corporate person, especially at that point in my career. Like right now, as an older, more mature, mature professional, I could probably go back and probably handle that stuff a little bit better. But back at that age, and whatnot, it was just everything moved too slowly. Everything was far too managed for my personality, not a lot of room for experimentation. And, you know, there were a couple organizations that I worked in there. They were fantastic. My managers understood me they understood my personality and let me run with it. others not so much. And, yeah, I think I saw more other people burn out. And I saw what burnout was, in reality for people that don't have support systems and don't manage their time. So just when I left, there were a couple older women on my team that actually experienced heart problems. And, you know, the ambulances came and everything, because everybody knew that the layoffs were coming, and all that kind of stuff. And they were nearing retirement and they couldn't afford to be let go. And it just kind of freaked me out. And I remember telling my boss, hey, I'm going to be fine. If you could probably, if you could put me on one of those cap plans so that I can, I don't want to leave and not to have a package. So if you could just kind of, you know, encourage there, do whatever you have to do to put me on the list to get me a plan instead of these folks that are just struggling so much. Oh, you know, please do and so they worked it out. And I think I was I was at an early eLearning Guild event. I don't even think they called themselves the eLearning Guild when I was at that event yet. And yeah, I was in a, it was giving some presentations, got called up into my office had the HR meeting, went back down, met Heidi for lunch and said, Well, I'm looking for work. Wow,

Luis Malbas  
that's, that's so timely. How about you, toddy experiences? Yeah.

Toddi Norum  
So I mean, I can completely relate to the idea that, you know, you just don't have enough. That's challenging. Because I have worked in scenarios in the past where, again, my management realized that like, I like to experiment, you know, I was given budgets, I was given timelines to do new things I was doing VR with Paul was ever called VR, you know, like doing really cool things. And I right now, I feel like that has just been really reined in. And I don't know, if it's just a thing. postcode companies can't get enough people. They can't find money to go out and do the experiment. They can't, you know, pose the business question to say, is this worth it? It just seems to be a very different landscape. And it was, you know, even 10 years ago, and so I'm really frustrated by it. You know, like, I, I love this field. You guys know, I'm probably one of the geekiest people when it comes to learning and development, like, you know, especially when we talk about technology and like, how can we make it better for the people that are out there learning? I mean, that's always my first focus. But you know, the second focus is how can we make a management understand the value of this right, and, you know, electronic solutions have made their wind or businesses everywhere, but it seems to be devoid still in l&d And so that's really frustrating to me, because I know that we can leverage technologies in ways that can really ramp us up to scale and a lot of businesses can show their value. And yet you know, I just feel like my you know, I get told no one ever Pretty fun. And it's you know, it's not just my current role, it's been the last few roles that I've had. And I don't know if this is a COVID thing where the budgets are just so slashed or things are so slim as far as staffing, but yeah, so it's frustrating because I'm not finding the opportunities to go out and tinker and experiment. And I really want to and, you know, I mentioned it earlier to you guys, I haven't been able to go to any events like, you know, DevLearn, or anything with my employer paying for it. And I'm frustrated that, you know, the people we work for, don't recognize that we need that FaceTime with others doing really cool things to be inspired. You sometimes feel fine in your work, if you're part of a larger organization, sometimes you're just kind of a lone wolf. And you really do need that inspiration from somebody else who's doing something awesome. That's I have a lot of FOMO and jealousy when it comes to that. I'm like, Ooh, you get to do that. Yeah. So

Luis Malbas  
you know, it's actually sounds like, well, like Michelle Johnson and chatter saying disengage, disengaged, like that's, and that she experiences that sometimes. So it's kind of sounds like we need to talk about this is, you know, solutions to the burnout. It sounds like Tati, like having opportunities to go, you know, to go to conferences and to learn to experience something, you know, to help with your career, that that can help with it. But Brian, like, what other What have you done to help you with with burnout to, to kind of recover from, from situations like that.

Brent Schlenker  
A lot of the times, for me, I think it's just doing other things, and just escaping for a while and just completely disconnecting. And I think, I don't know, I guess, I guess over the many years that I've had to do the working from home thing I've discovered, you know, certain little things that tend to be triggers that get me down, are starting to feel that depression setting in or that anxiety sitting in, and a lot is just sitting at the desk too much and not getting outside. I'm blessed to live in Arizona, so we have a lot of sun and sun is good for you. So you got to get out in it. If you sit in the dark for too long. You know, it physically, it can be a real, you know, it can really be a real issue. So I learned that I need to get out. And then and, you know, I don't know if it works that way for everybody. But I'm an outdoorsy kind of guy. And so I just need to get out. So I just learned that I have to get outside and do stuff, whether it's running or mountain biking, or just getting out and walking, or doing whatever. You know, I have to do that. And I just have to have other hobbies, other things that I do. And thankfully, I have a laundry list of 1000 things I like to do, which is both a blessing and a curse. No, I'm easily distracted. But you know, I can easily pick up one of those things, and just disappear and disconnect for a while and it helps. So I think that's that's the biggest thing. You got to have other stuff that you do other other things in your life besides your work, or else. Yeah, it can be hard.

Luis Malbas  
How about you? toddy? Yeah.

Toddi Norum  
So I mean, like, I could not work without my music. And that's both at the workplace and at home. And it has to be the right type of music. And I'm the same way I live like right off of like 35 miles of walking paths right out my back door. And that is truly kind of my my lifeline on a lot of occasions is I'll just head out the door. You know, there's other things that I do, you know, I mean, obviously, I'm still out there creating documentaries. I had a small documentary that I put together this last summer. And so like that focus really does help. Because that's where your creative juices can go, you know, and as long as you can afford to do these things. I mean, like producing a documentary is not cheap. But you know, it just like, you know, now I'm into this entering this thing into film festivals. And so you know, it gives me a focus that lets me not think about, you know, things I can't do and my role. Oh, good. I mean, it's just but it's having to really think through what you can do. You know, and I do a lot of time blocking as well, as far as like giving myself time to go out for a walk. I take that as my lunch. I even do it at work. When I'm at the jobsite I take a walk around sort of the past because I just need to like clear my head and I'm going to coworkers, this is more than I do. Boom, he's gone for a walk.

Luis Malbas  
Ya know, and it's kind of a perfect segue to the next slide. Sorry, I didn't realize that we had the we went from Canva to PowerPoint, slide deck. So we're this crazy stuff happening. But so it almost sounds like you have to kind of have these boundaries right between your work and your personal life. I know for myself that if I didn't do T LDC aside from what I do, you know to get my regular paycheck I'd probably I mean I would have figured something else out I'd have to come up with something else because to DC is actually in a lot of ways an escape for me because It lets me sort of do something that internally is really important for me to do, which is, you know, just to help other people. And so, you know, just been able to power through and just keep it going for all these years. Because it's important to me, and then, you know, just do my work at the work that I do at O'Reilly and just, you know, and, and, and cash that paycheck on a regular basis. But how about the two of you like setting your boundaries between between work and, and personal life? Like how, especially as remote workers in toddies, use a hybrid? You know, what, what have you? What have you done to be able to, to make sure that those boundaries are there?

Toddi Norum  
Yeah, I don't answer emails, after hours, I don't look at the phone or the email at all. It's like, you know, five o'clock rolls around. And I've done I, I didn't used to do that. And it was almost expected that some of the other organizations that I was out, even look at it on the weekend, and people like, I emailed you this week, I'm like, that's nice. I saw on a Monday morning. But you know, that that boundary just can't can't change. I'm not I'm not given my off time to, you know, anybody that I work for, because they don't live in my house.

Luis Malbas  
You you have drawn some pretty good clear, very, very, very, like solid boundaries between your work and personal life. Yeah,

Toddi Norum  
definitely. My mom was here last week. So I took the week off to be with my mom, you know, didn't open up the computer. I'm like, nope, my mom's hair, my, you know, my mom's 79. I have, you know, time with my mom that's special and not interrupting that for work.

Luis Malbas  
And I'm just saying all these things that get solace posting, which is that total distraction? But how about anybody in chat? Do you? Um, do you have? Do you have any boundaries that you set? Or is your work and personal life kind of interconnected? And then Brett, I know for you, I mean, a lot of times you have always, it seems like you've sometimes just, it's all one big thing, you know, different points in your life. But how about your boundaries currently? Like, is that something that you've been able to set?

Brent Schlenker  
I think so well, so it's a lot easier, because all three kids are now out of the house. So so that changes things significantly. And my wife, Linda is very, very supportive of me, you know, doing the work I need to do whenever, whenever I need to do it, you know, working now, for a global software company, sometimes you have to support Australia, or, you know, the APEC region. And so you have to do a late meeting, you know, every now and then, or, you know, and so, so you just flex that stuff, but yeah, for me, I think, yeah, I need

Toddi Norum  
just because of the

Brent Schlenker  
way I need to function just to stay healthy, I have to bounce around from certain things. So I think for me, one of the benefits of being at home is that when I, you know, I can always tell I'm stuck because I'm staring at my screen. And I'm not too sure what to do next. And I and but I know there's a whole bunch of stuff that I have to do, and I can actually see the things that I have to do. But for some reason, I just can't, like, do any of them. I know it sounds really weird. But that's when I just know I have to just get up, go outside, go do something else for 2030 minutes. And then when I come back, it's like, oh, yeah, I have to do that. Okay, you know, and I'll start doing it. Or I'll think about it while I'm out walking or whatever. It'll be like, Oh, I could do this. Or I could do this. Oh, I shouldn't be doing this. Oh, yeah, I really want to do that. Okay, I'm gonna get back and, and start doing that particular thing. You know, it's weird, but it's taken me 50 years to figure out all the little quirks of how to make it work. But, you know, and I am certainly not perfect at it. But yeah, I mean, I figured it out. The boundaries for me are the work stuff like the time blocking is a big thing for me that I have to do. I have to just tell myself, I'm going to set a timer for 45 minutes and I'm going to turn everything else off. And I'm just going to turn on that one app to do the thing that I'm doing whether it's writing or just have one app to write in. If it's video have just to have the video stuff open and I will just force myself to not think about anything not do anything else. You know ignore the phone when it rings ignore the door knockings all that stuff and pretend like I'm just in a different space and that seems to help a lot but for me it's more it's not struggling with boundaries with like interruptions and the outside world. It's forcing boundaries on myself to actually get work done. That's that's more of a struggle for me and it's I guess it's an Different way of framing it.

Toddi Norum  
When I started in, like my, my browser's setting up groups of things, so that like when I need to do a task, I have all of those pages that I need to get to in one place. And I organize it that way, which I don't know if I ever felt the need to do that before but distraction. And I don't know, I don't deal with distractions now as well as I did before. So like, I need to do the same thing, right? Like, I need to have all those windows open, everything needs to be focused, and shut everything else down. So there's no other notifications and no slacks and do nothing like that. Because it just does take a lot more concentration. I don't know if that's just age or, or maybe it is part of the burnout. You know, you have to be more focused,

Luis Malbas  
how long? How long does it take you guys to realize that you needed to establish boundaries. Cuz I know for myself that I was failing, I was rewarded, like, the more that I let work be my personal life, the more money I made, like if I really, truly dedicated myself to my job, I would just get praise, and I would get raises is like, oh, yeah, like the teachers works all the time. He did so many things. And then you realize that you suffer burnout, you come can sort of come back around, and like, why am I doing this? Why did I let my job take over my life? But is there I mean, how do you even know when? Or like, how come we're not even taught this, like at a younger age that you you need to establish these boundaries? I mean, hasn't it taken a while for for you to figure it out?

Toddi Norum  
That was for me. Yeah. Yeah.

Brent Schlenker  
I like I said, I think for me, it's I've struggled with. Yeah, just the focus. And just figuring out on the on the productivity side, I don't think, you know, that's ever really been. Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm just trying to think back when boundaries really were an issue, like when the kids were young, and all that kind of stuff. And I was still working from home. And it's like, no, I can't help with the laundry. No, I can't help with the kids. No, I can't, you know, but yet, you're still in your office, and you're trying to work, but you hear all the struggles and the things that are going on? Yeah, in the same building, that you're in your house, and you want desperately to be helpful, but you can't I mean, those that's that stress, and that's, you know, that's horrible. That's when I decided I need to go get my own office somewhere else. You know, and do that. So I think having a place to go outside of your home is a good boundary to sell, whether it's an office or a coffee shop or something. Yeah. And I really like, yeah,

Luis Malbas  
Paul's comment here. Our education system really does promote the cog in the system approach. It's totally true. So along those lines, you know, the impact of modern and remote work on mental health, like how has especially like post COVID? Well, I mean, Brent, you've been doing this for years and years. So this question might not be as relevant to you, but remote work has changed how we are doing our work nowadays? How has it impacted your mental health?

Toddi Norum  
I actually, I wrote this a couple days ago, I think it's really difficult to find good relationships have worked now. And it's because other people are doing the same thing. So like, what are my boundaries? You know, what's important to me? You know, and well, I think they would like to get to know people work better, you know, they're really focusing on their families. And I, you know, the folks I work with tend to be younger and have younger families. So for me, it's definitely changed those relationships, because it used to be all of my friends. Were my work friends. Yeah, that's where I made most of my friends. You know, and then I mean, the, the political landscape hasn't helped, either, you know, it's been difficult to have conversations with people at work, where you don't feel like you're, you're having to keep everything in check. So, you know, if you're, you know, mindful of it, you don't want to offend anybody, you know, and it just, and we watch the news. And, you know, there's six different things we can say that can offend somebody. So sometimes I think we don't talk to each other very much. You know, and it's hard to figure out how to do that. But I always had worked, I was still at the same work friends that I made, you know, 20 years ago. And I talked to them all on a regular basis. I do take a lot of time to talk to people, and that actually has helped with the mental health issues, but there are days when it just frankly, is depressing. You know, I mean, I don't even know how else to put it. I think we all get down and we all we all feel like you know the imposter in the room sometimes. You know, sometimes we feel like we're not doing as much as other people. There's major FOMA you know, I mean in PE, it's been a challenge, you know, new new workers get brought in now at higher salaries than people who have have shown allegiance to a company or a, you know, kind of state. So it's just so weird stuff going on.

Brent Schlenker  
I think I was reminded the thing that got me going to DevLearn this year was, and I was just thinking about this, how you think there's this weird hybrid that just needs to be figured out with folks is the because the value you get from hanging out with somebody for an extended period of time, is huge. But at the same time, too much of a good thing can turn into a bad thing, right. So if you're hanging out in the office with people for 810 12 hours a day, five days a week,

Toddi Norum  
it that

Brent Schlenker  
that might end up being a little bit too much, right, and conflicts and things like that can start to occur, and you can, everything can kind of go south, but the exact opposite, like not having time to connect, or just connecting in meetings on Zoom, or teams or whatever, you know, once or twice a week, and you have the proverbial you know, let's do a little chit chat before the meeting starts kind of stuff, superficial things. But then when you get to an event, after you've been working with somebody for, you know, a year, two years, you see them face to face for the first time and you hang out, go to dinners, go to, you know, go to lunch together and help out all of a sudden, it helps productivity to I've noticed, because it's like, oh, now I know the details and the things that this other person is doing. And I can feel comfortable to call them and say, Oh, how's this customer doing? Oh, what What can I help you with hear, you know, and they feel more comfortable reaching out to you, because they kind of now know a little bit more about what you're doing and the things that you know, and you can you can start doing that kind of stuff. And that, that hit home pretty hard after this Dublin in hanging out with our new our new folks on the team. So yeah, I mean, it's, it has to happen to your point today, like getting out and meeting people face to face, whether it's your colleagues or people immediately outside of your job, but in the same industry, you know, there's there's all that value there. And I think if I think if there's a way to quantify that, and to deliver, define that value, and to deliver that to management or whatever, I think they might be a little bit more interested in seeing it. But you know, until they see data or something somewhere and their higher ups, you know, say to them, wow, you should really be doing this, a lot of times that stuff, just it doesn't happen. And no matter what you say, it's not going to change it. But I think the politics of work could be a whole nother webinar.

Toddi Norum  
Or three or four. I remember the new engineer yesterday who came out of Worcester Polytechnic Institute room, enjoy talking to this guy and learn more about what his personal goals were for work, you know, he's a younger person. And I walked away thinking, you know, how cool that he wants to find ways to solve some of our bigger challenges. And he asked me, he said, What can I do to socialize this? And I said, honestly, it needs to get socialized up to management. And I said, you know, you're putting together a really clear idea here. I said, How about roadshows? You know, I mean, that's part of change management, right? And, and I said, take it to the management and show them with value as of solving this problem this way, you know, with the data and I'm the keeper all that electronic data. So, you know, that's what we were working together. But it was actually really inspiring to talk to somebody at that phase in their career. I'm like, Yes, this is awesome. I remember being misled. So you know, that just help to talk to other people and meet them.

Luis Malbas  
You know, Kim mentioned something earlier about hobbies where you get to meet other people I'm just wondering for the both of you, do you guys do anything outside of a digital community or like an in person community that you're a part of, to, to help you know, sort of with your mental health and sort of alleviate some of that maybe loneliness that comes from not interacting with with groups do Do either of you have anything like that?

Toddi Norum  
I'm part of an over 50 hiking group. And I made my husband go cuz he's not an extrovert. And so I make him get out and meet new people actually scheduled a session a couple of days to go to Chicago to see his best friend because his best friend is coming from Singapore. So you know, being enabler than I am. I'm like, Okay, you're gonna go see your friend and oh, yeah, you're gonna join this over 50 hiking group tail. It's a really fun group. Sometimes we have to be on waitlist to get on their hikes, and some of them are strenuous and some of them are just about going and hanging out and roasting marshmallows. Oh, that's School.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah. How about you, Brent?

Brent Schlenker  
Yeah, I mean, I ever since we've moved out of the city, to the outskirts of nowheresville. Yeah, it's been harder, and I have recognized and realized I need to, I need to get back into groups, but it. So I started, you know, playing guitar and in the church band. And so that's, that's helped, you know a lot, it was a good easy step, it's something I've been wanting to get back into for a while anyways. So. So that's helped. But I have recognized that I do need to put days aside where I go into town and meet with folks. But I will also say that, you know, just out of sheer need to be connected with other human beings when I was working from home, that's what that's what pushed me and pushed me besides being a geek with all the tech and everything. That's what pushed me into live streaming and, and, you know, learning all these tools and figuring out how to do it, it was, I mean, I want to be able to say, I do it, because I love everybody in the industry. That's part of it too, right. And I want to be helpful, it's part of that. But it was a lot for selfish reasons, too. I just, I needed to connect to people I needed to start my day talking and jumpstart my brain and engage with folks. So I mean, you know, daily live streaming back when I first started it, I think people thought I was totally insane. And, but for me, it was that was needed for my mental health. So to me, that was a mental health solution I needed. The technology was there, I was totally geeking out on it and wanted to play with it anyways. And then I realized, it helps me talk to people and get to know people and gets my day going. So I chose the morning to do it. And we did it. And it was great. I think people still thought it was crazy. But it worked for me. Yeah. And

Luis Malbas  
it used to be it seems like social media was a resource that help a little bit with that loneliness and, and being able to connect with others. And now more than ever, it's just is, to me anyway, it feels Oh, yeah, just go in there to battleground. It's very divisive. And yeah, like, it's

Brent Schlenker  
not what it used to be, right. I mean, I'm not to go too deep down that rabbit hole. But I just got through having that conversation with somebody yesterday as well. And it was I remember, and I hate to be the old guy here, but just, you know, remember the old days, right? When it first started, it was for that it was when we first started blogging, at least for me, it was to connect with people. And when somebody left a comment, that was a big deal for me. And I remember thinking, wow, it's not just like somebody at my job, or a friend of mine. This is somebody from, you know, Japan that found my blog and has something to say. And I remember the first time that happened, it was like, just blew my mind. I'm like, This is the coolest thing. And I just I loved every minute of it. And it was, you know, that was that was really, really cool. It was really cool. And now yeah, now it's just kind of, it's all gotten out of hand. And it's not doesn't seem to be the positive thing that we were all hoping it was going to be back in the early days. Which is sad.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah. So along those lines, I mean, is there what alternatives like if you are somebody that you know where you feel like you need to improve your mental health and you're you know, you're you do digital things online? Like are there any resources that you've that you that you go to at all to help with with your well being

Toddi Norum  
I'm on Instagram and I love my dogs my dog accounts actually helps with a lot of well being so it's funny because I there's one of my brother's best friends is probably one of the best known guys in this whole space of for adopting older non adoptable dogs and his stories are hilarious and I know him personally. And so you know, I need something to really smile about I get on to the wolf game 20 to 40 page and see somebody who has more animals than I do. And you know, the chickens and the turkeys in the in the house pig. So it's always good for a laugh, but I mean, that's probably the most I do as far as engaging except for LinkedIn. But LinkedIn is, you know, it's like I think you can find the authentic people there. You know, sometimes you get that polarization but I still think LinkedIn is actually a good space to find people in your space or doing things that are new or innovative or talking about technologies and engaging Asking questions, you know, there's still quite a few authentic people out there. So LinkedIn is still been kind of my my jam. Although I really want to go to an event and meet some people again, I probably didn't mention this. But last year when we went to Utah, we did our like two week tour of Utah, the state parks. I also purposely went to Sam Rogers house to visit him. I purposely went to see my friend Kristen Okanagan, and I purposely hunted down my friend Susanna who I used to work with and had dinner with her. So like, I made sure that I made the time to meet people in my space that I've either known or worked with over the years. And so it was kind of like, was like my training, learning and development tour while I was going to all the national parks. It was cool. That's great. That's great.

Luis Malbas  
I love what I'm seeing in chat, too. There's just some really interesting things in here. And Molly, you're somebody that I would love to talk to you about this at some point, just because you put everything into your work I've just seen you, like just take on so many different projects and just go for it. So, you know, you know, when I think of somebody that you know, that has had to set boundaries and you just even burnout, like you definitely come to mind. And then Cindy at Belkin, you know, it just seems like you have so many great ideas and scenarios there that really really helped with with workplace well being and and I think that is so very cool. I admire Belkin because of some of the stories that they you share. And then Kim Sinha craft, I mean, yeah, gaming on Discord and things like that. It's awesome that, that, Dan, let's let your team do do that type of stuff. So it's great. All right, let me move on to the next slide here. Overcoming isolation and loneliness. I think we're kind of just we've been talking about that a little bit, and how we've been able to navigate it organizational support for mental health. Through your work, I mean, is there anything else that you'd like to see that, that you're not seeing now?

Toddi Norum  
I being on site, I think there needs to be a much bigger focus on it. No one ever, ever asked anybody how they're doing? You know, and I think they're missing out on opportunities, you know, to just for a little while, at the beginning of COVID, it felt like, you know, some managers were getting on line and saying, let's do a health check, you know, and that was at a different company. But I just think that, you know, companies, if they really care, I mean, and who knows if they actually really care, but if they want to keep their people, they need to ask the question, how are you doing? And how can we help? And you know, what can we do to make this environment more conducive to you wanting to stay? You know, retention is the name of the game, right? I'm not I'm not saying it, you know, just, it feels like it just kind of went out the door.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, Brad, have you? I mean, is there anything that that you've experienced where you feel like you've seen support for mental health within an organization?

Brent Schlenker  
I think the best support that I've ever seen is just when, you know, when honestly, and authentically companies and managers and whatnot, just say yes, family first, like when when something comes up, because something always comes up. It's like, I've got this thing that came up, can you you know, and I've got these two meetings this afternoon, can you can you cover those meetings for me, so I can just focus and deal with this thing? At first for people to step up and not to give you the guilt trip? You know, just to say, yeah, how can we help take care of your family, go do what you need to do, will will take care of this, reschedule those customers, whatever, if you need to, you know, that's, that's the kind of stuff that I think also Garner's more support from the employees. I'm always more willing, and comfortable and want to put in more time and more hours. When I feel like when the shit hits the fan, they're there to support me in, you know, making that stuff happen. So it's not necessarily like official rules and regulations. I think anytime we systematize anything, it just people take advantage of it. And then there's like, well, you, Brent, you've taken your five personal days, you don't have any more personal days. So I'm not sure how we can help you. You know, man, that happened a lot back in the Intel days and you know, the corporate days, which is one of the reasons why I just couldn't stand it. I mean, life doesn't work that way. So if you can find yourself a fun, a good company to work for that can that does support that right? I mean, obviously, you have to deliver right? You have to get the work done and you have to do the projects do the things you have to add value to the business Is that your that you're working for, but you know, when you need some time for them to just support that time in that effort is, to me, that's the biggest thing that's just, that's huge. And I don't, I don't like the contrived type of wellness stuff, right? Like I get, if it's everybody's thing, to have the game days, and all of that kind of stuff. And when it becomes authentic and real, and you're all like, into it, that's one thing. But when it's like, okay, the whole entire team is gonna get together and play games, but maybe not everybody is a game player, you know, and then it's just like, it's all kind of just forced and contrived on everybody. That's, that's not something that's ever really, you know, turned me on, I think just working together on projects, is, is a great thing. And just something as simple as it wasn't contrived. DevLearn and meeting the new sales folks and the new team at DevLearn. In person, we were working together, and there's something about doing the work together, that is way more bonding, than going through some sort of, I don't know, some sort of leadership or team building exercise, and, you know, game or, or thing that's been contrived or built or whatever, right? When you're, when you're, when you're actually put under the gun, and you have to work and get stuff done with people. That's when everybody's true, stuff comes out. And you really learn a lot about people. So I mean, if you want to build a team, you know, give them a goal and tell them to make it happen.

Luis Malbas  
I think that was the power of the guild with events was that we would always know on a regular basis, there was this big thing that we had to accomplish, we would just have to all completely engage in it. And it wasn't going to happen unless we all work together.

Brent Schlenker  
Everybody knew everybody knew it's very clear. what needed to be done was very, very clear. And everybody had their marching orders. And yeah, I mean, it was that was that was awesome.

Toddi Norum  
I think you've got you've made a really relevant point here. And so I have really great coworkers, by the way that I work with right now. And they will pick up the slack if we need to pick up the slack for each other. But I was talking to somebody that interestingly, he's he's one of my favorite recruiters, I had a conversation with him yesterday, pick up the phone and call me and we just kind of caught up. And we were talking, you know, because he sees this from the inside, you know about how much that means to people to have teams, you know, and team leadership that really supports them and really helps them get the work done versus you know, like what I said earlier, you know, management's, I don't think management, which is not your team leaders, is paying attention to the mental health. However, I think that you're seeing a layer of people step in now to say, okay, how can we work together? How can we, you know, support each other? So, you know, that's something that I think was always present, but I think it's more present now, you know, how can we help each other out? And that's not a bad thing. I just say, how do we build that? You know, and actually, Cindy mentioned that they hired a psych psychiatrist or a psychologist. I'm like, I think that's awesome. I mean, I wish every company would do that, and maybe talk about, you know, how you can build good teams, you know, because maybe our teams need to be what we rely on versus management. You know, not being biased. I think management is on a different level. We don't relate to them. So yeah, ya know,

Luis Malbas  
and that's perfect. Last slide. Because we're running up on time, but the role of leadership and fostering positive work culture, I know the both of you have worked as senior l&d leaders for orgs. What do you think the role of leadership should be playing and, and helping with, with, you know, workplace well being and fostering a positive work culture?

Toddi Norum  
You go time? Anyone, I think it requires that engagement. You know, it's like I actually did it, I realized that there's folks on my team that I don't know very well, and in a quiet, you know, there's some introverts and whatnot. But I'd like to know more about what their challenges are, and how we can help each other. You know, I actually worked with one person who's just phenomenal about asking us questions. And I think, you know, I personally need to model his behavior, and start asking, you know, what can I do to help you? And that was exactly what happened with this young man that I met with yesterday. He said, You know, I'm doing this because I want to solve this problem. But I also want to be able to help your team. Because you guys, you own a piece of this. And I was like, Wow, just just talking to each other. Just finding out how we can work together. I think it's really step one. You know, and we've backed away from that remote work is caused part of that, you know, I remember Oh, my gosh, it's a friend. They probably work remotely as long as you have like, you know, 1012 years ago, I was working remotely If I remember getting onto calls, and nobody ever turning on the camera or the phone, you know, talking about being left out. So at least COVID gave us a perspective that hey, there are other people here, we're always vote with just about this one person on the line. But we do need to engage, you know, and it's, it's harder when you're an introvert. I'm not an introvert. So I, you know, I feel like maybe that's on me, maybe I need to start that I did actually suggest to my boss, I said, I think we need to spend more time together, you know, maybe take a half day and do an off site and not not doing formal team building exercise, but just really getting to know each other. And I found out with teams that I was training in the field, and I've I've hosted lunches that I put on my own credit card, because I just figured it was time for us to go to lunch get to know each other. Yeah, down to the basics. Yeah, yeah.

Luis Malbas  
How about you, Brent, what do you think? Yeah, well, I

Brent Schlenker  
mean, I, you know, I was just learning when I got my first role in a leadership role manager role.

Toddi Norum  
I was,

Brent Schlenker  
you know, I learned a lot. So there's a whole lot of different, you know, feelings that go along with that one. But, you know, my, in my efforts, were to try it as best to have clear goals and objectives set for every buddy to do it. But I think a lot of them were kind of new to the role, and then they needed a lot more coaching. So that's where I kind of look back with, in hindsight, you know, and reflect on maybe some of the things I should have done differently. You know, but I think in general, and it does, this does depend on the org, I think, you know, especially large organizations, like you can't have like the CEO of Intel, meeting with every single 80,000 employees on a regular basis and stuff like that, right. It's just it's not possible, but for them to, you know, set those super clear goals and objectives. And hopefully, those goals and objectives trickle down. And then for leadership to just get out of the way and just say, How can I help for them to be supportive for them to say, I'm here to help you guys be successful at achieving these goals, as opposed to the guy that's just checking how much time you've been sitting at your desk? And did you leave early for the day, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever, you know, all that kind of stuff. I hope that kind of stuff still doesn't go on. Right now. I'm reflecting, you know, back 25 years ago. But I'm sure some of that stuff still goes on. And I think leadership just needs to I think they'll see more progress and more productivity as they support their employees more, especially if they've hired correctly. And they really, if they really, truly, honestly believe that the people that are on their team are good at what they do. They'll set the direction point people in the right direction and just say, Go, if you need help, if there are roadblocks, I am here to take those out of the way and to make the road more smooth for you. But other than that, go, go go as fast.

Mover blocks and just be a support function. That I think that would help a lot of different things productivity, health and wellness enjoyment at the office happiness, you know, the whole nine yards.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, like Cindy had posted in chat. Sometimes leaders have the problem and they lack the self awareness. I totally believe case. All right. Well, I think that's it, guys. I'm gonna go ahead and just wrap it all up. Thank you so much for being a part of this. I want to mention to everybody that is in the chat, and just anyone who might hear this, the recording. We do have a talent development event next week, a virtual event. It's called crafting success. And so far, it's been great organizing it. We have some really, really great speakers still filling out a couple spots. In fact, I have a panel I think we're going to try to set up for next week. I don't know Totti brand new guys up for being in a power panel. I've got like a couple people that are in there if you guys are interested, where we're looking for panelists right now to talk about. Well, the topic of the panel still has to be figured out but we're pulling that together, but let me know. Oh, sure. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah. But from what I'm seeing so far, it's looking really, really good. Program wise, super interesting. I put the link in chat. So that one is a free one. So please sign up. And that takes place next Thursday and Friday. So far, we'll have between like six to eight sessions. And with that Tati, and Brent, thank you so much for doing this. Can we do this again?

Toddi Norum  
Oh, please. I miss you guys seriously.

Luis Malbas  
Um, there is, you know, I would like to, you know, kind of follow up with some of this. And also like tackle that thing about working in toxic work environments and sort of like being able to navigate all that. And then of course, just lots of different things. In fact, I want to have more conversations about AI just because that is just spinning so quickly. I use chat GPT every day, I would, you know, like, I use it a lot for pretty much everything, including, like, I'm using it out to figure out my rotations for my fourth grade basketball team like figuring out who's going to play when it's crazy that I can actually ask AI to help me figure out who's gonna, who's gonna start and who's not so. So yeah, I'd love to talk more about that in TLD cast. All right, so everyone, thanks a lot, forehand. Good to see you, Cindy Kim. Molly, thank you so much for being a part of today. And, and hopefully we'll see you next week. Bye, everybody. Yeah,

Toddi Norum  
thank you so much. Thanks,

Brent Schlenker  
Louise.