Community Discussion: Bootcamps - Yay or Nay?

Luis Malbas  
Would love to see your your posts and chat. I do have some slides and but before we get into that, let me just tell you this whole thing about boot camps, yay or nay. It it's a constant sort of thing. For me. It is. It's something that I see and I read about, I see people's feedback, especially on LinkedIn, about their experiences in different booth camps, positive and negative. And honestly, it's like mostly negative, and it's hard, because in a lot of ways, tldc is like in the same sort of place. And as a lot of these boot camps, we're just, you know, we're trying to provide professional development, sort of help to people out there. Tldc, you can actually function in it at zero cost, if you want. All the events are pretty much are are free to attend, not the live face to face ones, but the virtual events. I gate the recordings just because I need, I do need to have some value proposition for for membership, and there are bills to pay at tldc. But for the most part, this is pretty much a passion project, and it's something that I've been doing for years. I've been in the space for pretty much almost 20 years now, and so I've just been at this for a long time. But when I hear and see the feedback about certain boot camps that are out there, and they come and go, they've come and gone through throughout the years, it like it's it's painful. It's really, really hard to see, see this stuff happen to people, especially now, where we see a lot of teachers, educators that are transitioning into instructional design, and, you know, there are marketers out there and other folks that are just trying to, you know, generate revenue and just take this money from them without adequately being able to provide you know what they're what they're claiming. So I saw this post in particular, and I'm going to paste it. And I guess one of the ground rules for this is I don't want to get into specific boot camps or people or anything like that, but I will post this one because it is about someone specific that I've seen regularly have that people have had problems with, it's just, you know, it just happens every three months or so, I'm going to post it in chat so so that everyone can have that. Thanks, Kim. Just so you know, and you know. And I had to post something about it on Slack, because I just think that, you know, I see people come around regularly that are looking for help, and they want to, you know, just advance in their career. And they see these boot camps, and it's just not that realistic. I haven't taken a boot camp in instructional design ever, so, you know, there's that. But from the feedback that I'm seeing and also knowing the individuals that that build these things often, I mean, it's just, this is just a regular occurrence, and so that's one of the reasons why I brought it up recently. So you can look at that post on Reddit if you want. You can see, even in the URL, who exactly it's about, but I don't want to get into specifics about, you know, his boot camp or anybody else's. I just want to talk about why they aren't the only you know they potentially are not the answer that you're looking for. All right, so let me go ahead and I'm going to share my screen so you can see my presentation. Oh, excellent. Kim, that's a great question. How many of you did go through a boot camp? Have Have any of you been through boot camps? Now, I will say, uh, at one point, because my background is it. And there were times when I wanted to learn, like, say, a specific programming language, like, like, learning JavaScript or something. And I saw boot camps, and, you know, the testimonials and all of that looked great. The marketing was great for it. And potentially, I could see, like, if there was a six week boot camp and I needed to learn JavaScript, it would just point me in the right direction on how to learn that specific programming language. And I could, I could get that, I can understand that, like, how learning JavaScript in a boot camp would work, because you just have to learn, you know, the code, but in instructional design and correct me if I'm wrong. Abby, like, there are just so many different things. It's a completely different type of um. A scenario than learning a coding language you know, as an educator and or an instructional designer, it's just, it seems, it's just completely different. So anyway, let's see here, Bobby saying no bootcamp, they didn't even exist that I know of when I first became an ID, many years ago. Yes. Okay, so let me go through this first one, and you know, please, please, just post in chat. Let me know your thoughts on this and Abby, jump in anytime with these boot camps in particular. This is the part that really hurts, high cost, with no guaranteed incomes or the guarantees are fraudulent. You know, in this particular instance, that was one of the, the post that, the that I linked to, you know, the person who had taken it high cost, I think it was $7,000 which, you know, I was telling Abby earlier, that would basically pay for an entire year of tldc For me, like, I'll cover all my costs. One registration would but $7,000 to sign up for this boot camp. And, you know, and with and with guaranteed block job placement, which didn't happen, and, you know, other things, that's kind of ridiculous. I mean, Abby, what are your thoughts on, on, on, you know that high cost,

Abi Stewart  
I It's hard to front the money. I think we're all in that boat of, there's just, there doesn't ever seem to be enough money. A lot of people either are out of a job or they're banking on having a job after they invest in in their education. And you know that the upfront cost, it's hard to come up with, with the money sometimes, and I think it's important to explore options, knowing that, you know, I wish it was like opening up Willy Wonka's chocolate bar and, you know, getting a golden ticket all of a sudden there, your path is made. But it's just, it's not like that. There is no magic bullet or formula, to do anything at all, you can learn the skills. I don't know. I think back to teaching. I don't know if there's any other former teachers in here, and you go through a formal education program, and then you get to the classroom and you're like, cool. It doesn't feel like anything I learned applied, because it's all it's all different, and it's changed, or it's different applying it in a real world scenario. So I just think there's also no substitute for getting out there and working in the real world. And I understand finding a job is hard, but there's other ways you can do it, like volunteering and kind of getting your getting in, get in the mud, get dirty, you know, figure it out. Is this what you want to do? Because guess what? I think all teachers are kind of pushed to that ID right away, and don't even think about anything else that they could do. And so it's important to do your homework. What if you start learning storyline and you hate it and you can't stand it, and they have invested in the bootcamp, and you're you're locked in? So yeah, I think it's important to explore and talk to people before making any kind of decision.

Luis Malbas  
I think that's, yeah, that's totally the thing for boot camps, for me, is in for instructional designers, you know, because they're all these different focuses that you can have within this particular field. And you know, if you sign up for the I mean, I don't know how boot camps can truly provide you with what you what you need, versus like saying, you know, learning JavaScript. Let me read some of the some of the comments here. Kim is saying, no one can guarantee you a job, even hiring managers accountable to someone, maybe if you're working in a small family business. But otherwise, just know, Gina mentions that would be the same thing as a college guaranteeing you a job in your field when you graduate. And I totally agree, yeah. So, okay, yeah. Let me move on to the next slide. So I can tell you like so this slide quality and curriculum is questionable. One of the things, the reason why I added this, this particular slide was, and I mentioned it in my post. I don't know if it was last year or the year before, where I had somebody approach me and had a, a, you know, a virtual boot camp that they wanted to advertise and, and, you know, and I asked for access to it, to look through it. They were really hesitant, but they gave me access. But they basically wanted to pay me a few $1,000 to push, you know, to do a marketing campaign to sell their their virtual boot camp to tldc members. I looked at it, and I'm like, This is terrible. It's absolutely terrible. And the the other thing is, is they also had a boot camp on on crypto and Bitcoin. So you know that sort of tells you everything, just, you know, of like what they were after they just wanted to basically make money off of people. But, yeah, I think that I know that I have met and. Some speakers that have come through tldc, I know have created boot camps, people that I respect, and I think are absolutely fantastic people. But, um, those folks, I think, I don't know what happened to the boot camps, but I don't hear about them a lot of it is, I think that, you know, we're not marketers, just by default, the people that do have really successful boot camps out there, I think tend to be more marketers than they are actual instructional designers and so and so. You know, it's one of the reasons why I can't say all Boot Camps are terrible, because I know some really, really great people that I know are trying. We're trying to make something really, really good, but, um, but, you know, they just didn't, you know they weren't, I guess, business minded enough. But I know for them, the quality and curriculum would be solid, but in a lot of instances, you know, these boot camps aren't made by people that are qualified to be doing it. I don't know, Abby, you got anything to add to

Abi Stewart  
that? I think the just, everything is just changing so so fast. And you know what worked for one person, and by the time they get to building the boot camp, probably all the things that they learned are outdated and they're not relevant in every job description that you might encounter. So I think a lot of the curriculum is locked in. You don't have a chance. It's not like you get to college and you get to pick your classes, your your path is kind of set for you, and you can't really deviate. So it's, it's nice to explore other options, where maybe you can pick from different courses, and you're not locked into a curriculum, because it might have nothing to do with what what you want to do, and that's that's not fun when you invest all that money and then you and then you've taken a bunch of classes that are not going to help you with what your actual end goal is. So Right? A lot of these places, I don't know if all of them are accredited, or what kind of rigor goes through their their planning or or building, or anything like that. It's not like a college where you can look at it and they've gone through an accreditation process and and all of those other things, right?

Luis Malbas  
And, you know? And you could read about some of this stuff in that post that I linked to from that Reddit post. You know, the once this person signed up for the boot camp, you know, the the quality of the instruction they found just was it just would start to, you know, towards the end of the program, it was really deteriorating and and the course was being taught by somebody who had gone through that same boot camp. And so that's why, you know, that was the Employment Guarantee that they got. Was, you know, once they completed it, they can go through and, you know, teach this, this bootcamp, as an instructional designer, but, you know, I don't know the validity of that. I wouldn't be comfortable with, all right, I'll move on to the next slide. Um, limited, real world application, you know, some of this stuff that I don't know. I don't I think for instructional design in particular, you know, the theory versus practice it. I don't know how valid it could actually be. I am, you know, and I think maybe Abby, you might be able to speak to this better than I could. But

Abi Stewart  
I go back to my teaching, right? They teach you all those classes in theory, and then you get to the classroom and you're like, Well, hold on a second here. This is my student. My six weeks of student teaching didn't prepare me for anything I'm encountering, so I think the real world application get your hands on something real world is important. And yeah, you probably aren't going to get paid for for it. But guess what, you've got a piece for your portfolio. You've got some of the way that things work. And guess what, volunteer opportunities can absolutely turn into something else if you invest the time and and and work with that organization, especially if it's something that you're super, super passionate about, you don't want, you don't want your portfolio to look like everybody else's. Because I'm sure any hiring manager can say, Gosh, I've seen that project 1000 times. But guess what? If you can't speak to it, and you can't talk about your process. Of course, they're not going to hire you just because you created something. You have to be able to apply it and talk through your process. And I think that's probably one of the biggest pieces I've not been on the hiring end of that, like hiring somebody, but any managers out there help me out here, isn't it about speaking about your project and your thought process and all how you get from point A to point B, that really is what matters, not the end product and how beautifully you fancied it up after seven or eight extra hours.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah. No, I, um, I am, you know, in the hundreds of people that I've talked to in this space about, especially about their career, the ones that I see that really, you know, pull through are the ones that. Like, maybe had, they start out with an internship or something, and they get that real world experience, or they start posting on Upwork and getting work that way. Or, you know, or, let's see, I, you know, I think Danny had posted something here leaders in my departments at the standard learn on the job, or get a certificate, and, you know, one to two weeks, yeah, just actually, just doing the work. Let's see. I'm gonna read some more of the comments here, like Kim is saying regarding finding a job. All the jobs I've had in writing slash Id have been via Face to face networking at local professional societies. Great point. All that is fading away. It makes job hunting much harder these days, in my opinion. But I do think that potentially, like I'm hoping, that even just, and I've seen it actually through tldc, that there are people that have made connections and found jobs through this particular community. And this isn't the only community out there. There are tons of them out there, you know, sign up for them all, not just, you know, like mine, or whoever's just like, go through and make it a part of your daily routine, especially if you're working, you know, to work these, these, these spaces, because you can, I mean, I've seen it time and time and again, I, you know, and and even with me, I'm happy to help, um, You know, just hit me up. Hit Abby up. We all are just regular people, and we will do our best to try to find opportunities for you. I have no problem with that. Let me just take a look through here and see there any okay. So Bobby saying, I look for the durable soft skills more than I do the technical skills. Those technical pieces can be learned on the job. That's fantastic advice there. Bobby And Kim saying she just Abby described exactly what my company does to find ID candidates. Yes, thanks, Kim. All right,

Abi Stewart  
you can't get anywhere. The class isn't going to make it. It's the networking. Because I think we can all agree, just blindly applying does nothing unless you have someone to help you out and get your application to the top of the pile. That's, yeah,

Luis Malbas  
that's, that's how it's, it's all changed. I mean, it's crazy to think my first like, lnd job I got by faxing in my resume to somebody, which is, you know, crazy.

Abi Stewart  
What did I read that that I think this is the covid tech bubble burst. I read an article a couple months ago that used to, you know, there was two jobs for every person that applied, because everything was going online. And now there's a great correction, where the layoffs are happening, there's too many people, and we've kind of done the flip side of things. And I Yeah, it's before you make a move. It's just so important to just work other angles and not expect that this, anything is going to magically appear in front of you. You have to maybe explore an unconventional path. Anyone wants to talk unconventional paths? I'm, I'm happy to do it several jobs after leaving the classroom, and I'm so excited. I just got, I just joined a brand new startup, Sahana, Inc. We're a Mental Health Resilience Building for curriculum for for kids. So I'm really excited to join that. And I think a lot of it is within your within your networks. And there are more than one way to get where you're going. And just because you talk to someone and you're like, well, yep, that's what you should do, doesn't mean that works for you. You have to kind of figure out your own way. And the struggle is really, really, is real, and you have to kind of give yourself that space to figure out where you're going and not get in the wheel of I have to fix this right now, and I don't know what I'm doing. There's communities out there. ADP list. You can find a mentor for free. There's a couple of other ones out there. Edu fellowship has a big L and D presence. They do meet and greets. There's, I think Brandon has a has a Rolodex full of people that have talked about their experiences and what they do. So you can find people to connect with ketchup. Fire is a great volunteer connector, where you can find projects to work on, get that real world experience and then, not to mention the University of YouTube, right? How many people have YouTube's channel for literally everything? So I'm a big proponent of free I've compiled a lot of stuff that's only one community. I think L and D cares is another one, because there's so many out there. Ton

Luis Malbas  
of them. Ton of them. Gina saying, I found my own way by building relationships where I already worked, and they hired me as a contractor right after I completed my grad graduate certificate. So yeah, and that, I mean, that's great, Gina. I mean, fantastic. I totally agree. I mean, in it, I did the same thing way back when, before I got into L and D, I would, you know, that's how I was able to find work. You know, doing during tech stuff is I was working inside sales, and I got this, it thing, it certification. And then. All of a sudden, you know, sort of skyrocketed over into into, you know, just working on on networks and stuff. Abby, did you say catch a fire? Yeah,

Abi Stewart  
it's all one word, catch a fire. Yeah, they have, I mean, basically it's all kinds of tech skills. They're looking for people to maybe do visual design, brand logos. It's nonprofits that post that need help creating resources, and they don't have the money to hire somebody. But if you can say, hey, I built the brand guide for this company, and you're a visual designer, that's going to look really, really good on your resume, and you'll also have references right people to speak to your work professionally, which is amazing.

Luis Malbas  
There you go. There's the link, excellent. Thank one organization.

Abi Stewart  
Maybe there's one in your community that you want to help them, and you see a need go out, get there. And I don't want to say, start kicking indoors, but you kind of have to, you kind of have to make your opportunity and not just sit there and wait for someone to do it for you. You have to be resourceful and kind of think outside the box, because everybody follows the same people on LinkedIn the same advice, and you kind of have to find a way that maybe isn't that path, and diverge a little bit to find to find your way. It's true different do what you want to do and not what everyone else says you should.

Luis Malbas  
Thank you, Abby, that's great. So this next slide about marketing is, I think that is especially a really important one for me, because I do actually have I work as a marketer, more like marketing operations for my day job, but I do a little bit Well, what I do with tldc is, you know, I do have to market stuff. I'm not great at it, and definitely slack off. But, you know, the thing is, is there are people out there that are great marketers, or, you know, you can go on YouTube and find out like, I'm sure that there's, it'd be easy enough to look on YouTube to find like videos on how to market a boot camp, how to, you know, to, you know, if you've got, like, a course or something that you want to sell, how to market it so that it can effectively, like, you know, sell X amount of registrations, that type of thing. I mean, I've seen stuff like that. I've never really followed any of them, but I do think that there has been a lot of there's a lot of work gets put into marketing these things, probably more so than even the courses or the curriculum. So you have to be careful about the marketing they can sound I would

Abi Stewart  
agree with that. I don't know if anybody else has a research background, but I if you look at statistics and things like that, and you can spin them for something or against them. It's just a matter of how you paint that statistic. How how big? How old are they? First of all, are they are? Is this five year old data that you're looking at? Oh, they might just slap that up there, and in fine print, you see 2020, in there, totally different. Or maybe their sample size was five. That's going to come up with a very impressive number. And it may not be exactly realistic if you're not getting into some of the you know, what it takes to do a good, good research and get and get quality data. So I think there's no substitute for asking people. And you know, how many reviews are there? Yelp, you've got people that are reviewing restaurants. And you know, before you even go to a restaurant or you want to hire a contractor to build you something, aren't you always looking at the reviews and asking people before you're just you just Google someone. You're like, cool, I think I'll hire that person. No, you're going to do your research. You're going to spend the money you want to get what you paid for. And that's worth more than just reading a little gimmick, but actually diving in and seeing what's in here. What does this entail, not only the cost, but the money or the time that you're investing in it right as well as where you want to be? Is it going to get me where I want to go? So, and I'm not saying no one should ever take a boot camp. It's not that some people like the structure, or maybe it's a very purpose driven and this is what you need. But a lot of people enjoy the I'd rather learn by myself on my own time, because you've got kids and other things that are working into your life, and you need to be able to make it more flexible. So it definitely is worth conversations with lots of people. Find those trusted sources you can talk to, find a mentor, I think toddy and a few others are offering for people to reach out and start that conversation. Take their they will talk to you, and they won't charge you anything. So take, take that as a first step to try to figure out where you want to go. A sounding board is extremely helpful if you're not sure and it's intimidating to start. I get it, I've done it, and it is frightening and exciting all at once.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, yeah. Just from the chat, I am just going to read toddy's comment. Thanks for doing this. Luis, I'm on a plane right now, but anyone on here is welcome to reach out to me as well. Lots of free resources to share. Todd's and I. Accidental ID, and had to figure it out, but it can be done. And yeah, toddy has been a part of this community for years and years so, and I know toddy has served as a mentor for a ton of people. So yeah, please. You know, reach out to toddy if you're interested. And Michelle saying, There are countless posts in the Instructional Design subreddit about these bootcamps. Search and you'll find it. And also, I mean, I just see them on LinkedIn and in other places as well. It really is, yeah, it's just something I think that I don't know, just pushes a particular button in me, and I don't know was, in this case, when I saw it in in the Instructional Design subreddit, I had to kind of react All right, so it's usually these, I didn't tell you this Abby, but usually these, these weeklies, are only 30 minutes. But let me go through and finish off this. Get get through these slides. And

Abi Stewart  
it's also a call out during LinkedIn. That's a P that's social media. We don't think about it like but it is. And everyone knows i i read another article, and I think it's with a younger generation in particular that's having trouble keeping up with their online persona versus their real persona. So what people put out there is going to be the best of everything, right? It may not be an actual picture of reality. So I think viewing it through that lens is also important, yeah, when you're when you're reading LinkedIn or anything, because I know all of these places, market through all social media channels, yes,

Luis Malbas  
yeah. Kim's comment here is pretty important. It's easier to just throw money at a problem. And I think that that, you know, you just sort of, I mean, Abby, we had this conversation about the shortcuts, you know, just taking shortcuts. And it was a shortcut. It just pulled away, right, right? And it doesn't work that way. I mean, I all the and it the thing is, I guess it's like the alternative isn't that bad, like, if you if you think about doing a boot camp and spending whatever, $7,000 versus, you know, just putting your head down and doing the work, getting all of the experience that you need and and being having more guaranteed qualifications at the end of all of it. I don't know it's like, it just, it seems like, yeah, just do the work, you know? And I know that's exactly

Abi Stewart  
what it is you get, what you put into it. So if you could just go through the motions in in that $7,000 course, but it, but if you didn't do anything, and you just were like, I'm just going through the motions, and I'll just have a credit that's not going to do you any good. You have put in the work. You have to put in the work. And there's tons of ways to do that. You need to figure out kind of your path and what's going to work for you. And I don't underestimate study buddies. I mean, if you find a friend that you want to learn with great sign it. I think Google's courses are probably far less expensive, what, $75 for some of the paid ones, and you can come out it's a shorter time LinkedIn learning. The library offers that for free. So I can go with my library card and log into LinkedIn learning and learn something. So I would check your library if you're looking for free resources. That's a great place to start.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, no, totally agree. Let me get through this slide. Another thing that was in that particular post that you know the original poster mentioned was about the lack of personalized attention and support, and also how it was basically being taught by a, you know, a person who had gone through the boot camp and wasn't even really a a working instruction designer, with only the only experience they had was, you know, through what they learned at the boot camp? Yeah, not so great. You really have to keep an eye on that. Now I do you know, I have to say, like the people that I know that with great intentions, you know that were extremely experienced senior instructional designers that have tried to put together boot camps, I think that would probably be kind of a different scenario, but in this particular one, with the individual who's running it, you know, Dee does have some great content out there, but, you know, it seems like he, he ultimately just disappears, so just doesn't, doesn't make any sense. Um, let's see. Before I move on to our last couple slides, I want to read a couple things here, because we've got some some good stuff. Bobby is in the credentialing space, and says Bobby's working with the Institute of credentialing excellence to expand its educational offerings to be more inclusive to ID, and would be happy to connect with others on this and follows with these credentialing orgs need ID and Bobby has been an absolutely fantastic member of tldc and contributes, like so much regularly. Kim adds. Kim is a veteran instructional designer. For a little while longer, I think what you're going to be retiring soon. I think Kim, I. But Kim says finding a mentor, plus a supportive community like tldc and being consistent might actually be the best strategy. Totally agree. Um, last thing, so once you're done with the boot camp, you're pretty much done, like once you're finished with it, you've paid them your money. Well, in this instance, with the with the post from Reddit, this person is still making payments to pay off the bootcamp, but pretty much, once you're done with the bootcamp, you're kind of like done. You know, job placement usually is non existent. From what I've read. The networking opportunities, you know, kind of dry up within that particular environment. You have to look elsewhere of So, yeah, that's what happens after you've invested all this money. Once it's finished, you're just kind of have to move on, all right? And

Abi Stewart  
a couple of ADP list is, I think they have a lot of communities. I know they run events and then edu fellowship, if you haven't looked there, Brandon's got some great resources, and he also hosts L and D mixers every month, so you can sign up and go and meet people. So those are free networking opportunities for you to have. There's more. I think l d cares. If you give me a minute, I'll try to find that website for you. But yeah, hit me up if you want to talk free resources, or if you want to just swap stories, I'm happy to do it here. I've think I've collected a lot over over the four years since I've left teaching. And for those of you who are are leaving, thinking about leaving, or maybe you just left. You can attest to the fact that it's a brave new world, and the business world works completely different than the teaching little world. We get our little teaching bubble here. So yeah, not to worry. There's tons of support out here for you.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, yeah, um, potential for outdated content. I think we talked about this a lot already. So yeah, with these boot camps, you just got to keep an eye on that. I doubt that most of them, really do try to keep their content out, but at least I've, I just have never heard one. I honestly, you know, I've heard of like, there's one boot camp in my mind that I'm thinking of that seems to be really popular, but I, you know, I just hear half positive half negative about it, but the positive usually feels like it's just really, really good social media marketing. So, yeah, I don't know of one that I would ever 100% like recommend. All right, so, and we've been talking about alternatives. Better alternatives available. This is my last slide, but self paced learning, you know, formal education, I know that. I mean that that is the one thing that you know consistently seems to be one of the one of the best directions to go is, you know, especially if you can get in there with a degree program or certification. I don't have any specific certifications or degrees that I can recommend. I have done TLD casts and events focus on that, you know, yeah, there's like Boise State has been on as a guest. And I have you know, even prior to here, when I was at another organization, worked with them regularly, and they seem like they have a great program. I love the folks at the Oklahoma State University. I think is it? Yeah, they they are wonderful. Have been regular guests on, on tldc events, you know, those I can't imagine going wrong with, with some of those folks, workshops and webinars, just there's a ton out there, right? You know, I try to do one every a big one every month. And, you know, sign up for free. You just will learn so much in at the inclusive and the accessible, inclusive design conference coming up. So sign up for those and participate in those having those skills, especially that you can gain from that particular event series would be absolutely a great thing to show on, I think, a resume, or to bring to a workplace. So, you know, participate in those types of events.

Abi Stewart  
I think that there's a lot to be said as when you figure out where you're going to start reading job descriptions carefully and picking your learning path, right, there are certain skills that are going to start coming up that you're going to want to learn. So then you kind of create your own curriculum based on, you know, whatever you decide to do. If you decide, hey, a degree is going to be my most powerful that's going to be my most powerful tool. Maybe it's the workshops and you take them all a cart on Coursera or Google, right? Whatever your path is, please take the time to think about what it is before you. To kind of dive in head first. Powerful way to do that is to talk to people. I truly believe that you'll have connections for networking and jobs later on, but talking it out is super powerful. It'll bring up things you haven't even considered yet.

Speaker 1  
And so Gina mentioned it's great. She had a great experience in in her grad Certificate Program at the University of California, Irvine. And, yeah, and who is it? Is it? There is somebody that is active in tldc that I think some teaches there sometimes, or graduated from there. I can't remember, but yeah, I've heard that that's a great program at at Irvine. So, yeah, that's another one to look at. And so basically,

Luis Malbas  
when I had thought about this particular TLD cast, it's all about like, how can we convince you to think twice about signing up for this boot camp? For a boot camp, right? And that's really like, if you're out there listening in podcast land, checking out this recording, anything like that, and and you're thinking, well, here's an episode that is talking about boot camps. You know, should I sign up for this one? Because if you know, I have this, this payment plan that I can sign up for and be able to, you know, to afford this. And after I'm finished with this boot camp, I'm going to start working in as an instructional designer somewhere. And, you know, you hear all the all the stories about how much, how the quality of your life is going to just get so much better because of it and and all of that. This is really like our plea and this, you know, and we're talking about people that have, you know, years and years of experience in this space saying, you know, think twice about it. There are alternatives. Don't put yourself in debt or spend that money to do it. You can actually do this, you know, without having to invest all that money into a boot camp.

Abi Stewart  
Invest wisely. Whatever it is you choose to do, whether it's a Google course or and it's not just money, it's your time too, right? So that is also, I think we undervalue that because we're so looking at money just in these times, and don't undervalue your time either. You don't want to waste it. So be, be careful. It's, it's a, what is that Latin phrase, Caveat emptor, buyer beware. I mean, really, really, really, do your homework, and before you do anything, reach out to someone. Talk it through. And there's, I'm a proponent of the unconventional path. Or just, there's always more than one way, even though everyone or people will tell you there's just this one way, there's never just one way. There's so many ways to get where you want to go, even if you have to leave into in between spaces to get there. And

Luis Malbas  
you know, are you sure you even want to be an instructional designer? Yeah, exactly.

Abi Stewart  
That's what I said before. Maybe you get into storyline. You're like, this is the worst thing I've ever done, and I can't stand it. There's lots of other things to do, and you're never going to know unless you start talking to people and just researching. Hey, what do you do? I might want to do that. Maybe it's something you haven't even considered, right?

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, no, there are. I mean, I wish I could. I don't want to promote, like, that sort of line of thinking too much through tldc, but it's just totally valid. Like, really, you know, just think twice, you know. I mean, maybe you want UX or

Abi Stewart  
the space is big. The space is vast and large, and instructional design is just a small, little, small, little slice of it. I mean, maybe you like the training aspect. That's what I figured I don't like. I like to talk to people, and I like that piece, you know, more than I love to just build. I want to be a part of it, but maybe not in in that detailed space. So there's just, there's just a lot of ways to to get to where you want to go.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, yeah. Excellent. All right, Abby, thank you so much for um sharing your morning with us. I know you have a nine o'clock that you've got to get into. Everybody thanks for joining. Um, really appreciate you being here. I'll try to make these TLD casts more regular. I honestly, I have just, I think I'm working like three jobs right now, ever since I started playing in this crazy cover band, of like, it's taking up way too much of my time. And so between this my day job and the cover band, I've been like, oh so much, but I do appreciate everyone participating, and I'll try to make this a little more regular. And yeah, we will see you all next time. Thanks everyone. Bye.

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