Beyond the Badge: DevLearn 2023 Wrap Up with Rebecca Prejean

Luis Malbas  
All right. Welcome, everybody. Thank you for joining us here with the training learning and development community. We have a community discussion for this morning called Beyond the badge, DevLearn 2023 wrap up. That was a, it was quite an event. And right now, my primary guests is Rebecca, Rebecca, who's spoken with to DC in the past that one of our events, and I'm glad to have you here. And I know that there are other folks that will be popping in and so as I see them, come in, I'll go ahead and just invite them on stage. So Kim, thanks so much for being here. And, and yeah, so I have a series of questions. Now. Oh, first thing I need to do is ask you my whole setup is changed because my, my poor old 2015 iMac. Didn't make it through last week. So I'm actually on a new MacBook. And everything is a little different. Can you hear me? Okay, everything looks all right. Okay, good. Yeah. Hopefully, this weekend, I'll have my setup will be all clear and ready to go. But okay, Rebecca, first of all, let's introduce you to everybody. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Rebecca Prejean  
Yeah. So my name is Rebecca Prejean. I currently run my own business as a freelance instructional designer and learning strategist. And most recently, speaker, I did get to speak at Dev learn, but I've been in learning and development and instructional design for going on, I think the count the other day, around 12 years at this point, but I love it. And I live in Austin, Texas. And I actually focus on neurodivergent learners in terms of accessibility, creating those kinds of experiences, and consulting with different companies and things that want to make that good shift, right in terms of culture and atmosphere. So super excited to be here. love working with Chuck.

Luis Malbas  
Thanks, Rebecca. I appreciate your time. So let's start off with overall impressions of the event. You know, what did you think of the conference? How would you describe the atmosphere and organization of the event? And interestingly, you know, especially since your focus is on neurodivergent, folks, even just having an event in Las Vegas, that, you know, there's something to be said about that. So, overall impressions. overall

Rebecca Prejean  
impressions, for me are positive. And I'm actually much more of an introvert, believe it or not in so conferences like that can be very intimidating. They can be very overwhelming, just to my nervous system. But I felt like everybody was very welcoming, I got a chance to actually chat briefly with Mark, Brits, super nice, super welcoming, super encouraging. And then the days of the conference, what I found to be most interesting was how engaged people were. They wanted to learn, they wanted to network, they wanted to meet everybody, they wanted to see what technology is out there. And it really kind of brings home the fact that this is a community. We all work so separately from one another that sometimes it doesn't feel that way. But it really is a community full of people who want to help others learn and be their best selves. During my sessions, in particular, I found it to be really electrifying. And really inspirational. Like people were really engaged. They really had questions they really wanted to learn more in in the ones that I attended. Same thing people really wanted to learn more there were folks staying after the different sessions to ask questions. So for me, it was a really well organized event, nothing crazy easy to figure out where things were lots of maps, lots of easy stuff. And like I said, it really, really just brought home what I do, and kind of my role in what we all do, right? In this community in this learning and development industry.

Luis Malbas  
It is helpful that, you know, at the at the particular hotel at The Mirage, once you get down that hallway, and you're headed in that direction, that's where everything is. Yeah, so yeah. Because I know that Vegas and even other other places, it can be a little confusing sometimes where where things are. But that one, you know, you may get down that one hallway and you're pretty much on your way. I

Rebecca Prejean  
will say that was helpful. By the time I booked there wasn't any space at The Mirage. So I actually ended up staying Nishant across the street. I didn't do I and I can absolutely attest to what you said it was so confusing. And I got lost all the time. In elimination, I'm like, I don't know where I'm at. I

Luis Malbas  
was gonna mention that I had to take two elevator banks to get to my room. And same for you.

Rebecca Prejean  
Yes. And you're just like, I don't know where I'm at. I just asked like a sketcher shop and some salespeople. I don't know where I'm supposed to say

Luis Malbas  
it's true. It's true. And then I actually asked how to housekeeping if there were any shortcuts and they told me to shortcut like they said take the elevator to the 10th floor across the bridge then come down. And you'll be. And I tried to do that and totally got lost, I ended up all over the place. But yeah, so I think at The Mirage, it really was helpful. And there are places like if you want coffee or a snack or anything, if you need to buy something, there were little, little places that you can go to. But I know that the guild also provides those snacks and stuff for you know, during for breakfast and during breaks and stuff there. There are things out there for people to, to get into eat so, so that's very, very good. And so overall atmosphere of everything you feel people were just engaged. Excellent,

Rebecca Prejean  
excellent, excellent, like really engaged. People really wanted to be there and make the most out of their time. And it wasn't just, you know, a bunch of old l&d People that have been around for forever. It's brand new designers brand new l&d Folks, so you get some really good fresh ideas. It was, it was great to know

Luis Malbas  
that that's actually a very, um, that's, that's very apropos that that that that statement? Because I've, you know, I've been around that event for for years and years since since the beginning. And some of the, you know, the old timers that I know, we're just like, Yeah, I don't really know anybody anymore. It's like a whole different group of people, and all that. But I think that that's really refreshing. And that's good. And that's important, too, that that shows that it's a quality event. So what was your, what was your session? My

Rebecca Prejean  
session, I had two actually, one was like a morning buzz about supporting neuro diversity in the workplace. And the second one was about neurodivergent learners, and just different strategies that we can essentially employ in our development process for elearning, and micro learnings and things like that. Because as somebody who's neurotypical, my perception of what I create, it might be great, but that might not be somebody else's reality. And so it's kind of building that bridge between making our perception their reality, because that's really what it's about. It's about reaching everybody. So I felt honored to do it. Because

Luis Malbas  
nice. It's important. How did you so you submitted a proposal and

Rebecca Prejean  
okay, the proposal and full disclosure, I remember originally just wanting to go to Def learn, and then I saw the price. And I'm thinking that is outside of my budget. 100%. So I was like, Well, let me go ahead and submit a proposal to speak. And I really started thinking about what I do, what I would want people to know, and just what I can share from my experiences. And that really spoke to me, it's something that really needs to be pushed a lot in workplaces, and just in learning cultures in general. And I'm like, I've got something to say it's not to me, right? It might not be like, huge Pinnacle thing to talk about, or to say it's not like prolific, but it's something that people should hear, right? Money go, and I can't afford it. So I'm going to at least submit a proposal. Worst case scenario, I just have to work really hard to save the money to go. But this is an avenue. And it also, for anybody who's thinking about that, like I might not be able to afford to go, we all have different experiences. And there is somebody who can learn from what you've been through, in which you've dealt with. And so creating a session, it definitely takes time to think about your proposal and to write it and all of those things. But I would say don't be afraid to submit it. The worst they can be say no. And if they say yes, then you get to pass on that knowledge that you've learned over time, though, to me, it wasn't. And,

Luis Malbas  
you know, just the fact that you made the effort to try and and especially the fact that Mark Brits accepted that proposal that I think that says a lot about the program itself. I did talk to him for a little bit. And he did, he was pretty proud of the program overall. So So yeah, kudos for you for submitting, and I'm so glad that you that you were able to get in. It is expensive, though, right? I think I can't remember what is it still? Like? What actually I do have the website in front of me it's like still like, one? Is it 6095 Is the standard rate or is it more than that? Is

Rebecca Prejean  
they it was either that or little higher? Like it was it was pretty steep cost. Now, as I said, is it worth the cost? Yes. Like you can justify the cost. Yeah. In terms of just regular living. We not all of us have that, right?

Luis Malbas  
No, it's true.

Rebecca Prejean  
We're real people. We don't all have that I know I didn't have it. I was like, I'm gonna try this way. But if you can swing it, if you can afford it, if you can, if you're trying to get your employer to maybe sponsor it, and build a business case for it, there's a lot to be said, especially when we're talking about like AI, and virtual reality and these immersive experiences and trying to reach all these different learners that we all come in contact with, there's a business case to be made. That's

Luis Malbas  
great. And I don't want to forget, before we went live, you had talked about, um, you had mentioned that you thought there might be some folks that feel a little intimidated about going to DevLearn. Can you like, speak on that a little bit? Yeah,

Rebecca Prejean  
I can. Um, and it pains me because one of my clients, I was talking to them about DevLearn, I'm really pumping it up. I'm like, you absolutely need to send people to this. So they can go and learn. And what I thought was an amazing opportunity person said, Yeah, I'll send them. I talked to one of their trainers later. And they're like, it just feels like a lot. Or what we do and what we're currently at, like it feels so advanced for what we do here in this nonprofit organization. And I hadn't really thought of it in that way. And I talked to her later, she's like, you know, it's just really intimidating, because it's such a big thing. And they have like, all these sessions, like 150 Plus sessions, and it's like three days and workshops and all this stuff. And so it can feel intimidating. Like why would I need to go to something this big, if I'm just part of a nonprofit organization, or maybe even part of a smaller business? Where it's just local? Why? Why would I need to go to this, and I had never thought of that. To be honest with you, I was like, this is a no brainer, it's great. But it can be intimidating. And it's okay to feel that. It For Me requires and when I talked to the trainer, I said this, it means being a little bit more introspective, about why you're doing what you're doing, and where you want to go with what you're doing. Like you can continue to do these things. But you might be leaning out learners, you might be leaving out strategies that can really reach your learners that you may not be aware of, because that's the purpose of these conferences, is for us to not necessarily learn things that we already know is to build upon the skills that we have and to find new skills and new ways to teach and train and educate and really make this world of learning and development. irreplaceable, because right now a lot of companies think that well I can do without an l&d team, right? These conferences help us to make the business case that no, you can't do without us. And this is why because we can do all these things and reach your learners, and propel your businesses propel your organizations to where you want to go. Right. And so that's the explanation I gave her and she felt better about it. But what she stuff was like, I feel so big. And I just explained there are foundational courses, right? Like I taught one that I felt was very one on one was neurodivergent see what is being neurotypical what are these terms? Right? Very introductory. But there's value in that. If you are like the start of an l&d journey, you can find yourself so much further along than I think even some of us were, you know, some of us that have been around for like a decade than where we were like a year three years into our careers. Like, it can only help essentially.

Luis Malbas  
Nice, how about so your experience there the the quality and relevance of the sessions overall? Just were you feeling like the selection was good? And would you agree with Mark where he, you know, he's, he felt like he built a really good program. I

Rebecca Prejean  
think he did book a good program, a lot of talk about AI. Because I mean, that is the big thing right now. Ai, how to use it, how to use data, how to really use it to our advantage, the only

Luis Malbas  
takeaways that are stuck with you right now, on the AI side, the

Rebecca Prejean  
AI is here to stay. It's not going anywhere. But for me a couple of key takeaways, we're learning how to use AI while still building in your own creativity. Because honestly, that is the part that I kind of fear a little bit is that we're become so reliant on AI doing all these things for us, that we lose some of that human touch. And so making sure that we're using AI as a tool that can support our gifts, essentially is one of the many takeaways that I that I took from a couple of decisions. I went to, I would have loved to seen a few more things on accessibility and just some of that type of stuff. But overall, I felt like the the number of sessions, the relevance of the sessions, they really were key for where we are today. In this the l&d space, it's all right now. That's

Luis Malbas  
great. That's good to hear. Have you been to any other major events? Like say, Can you compare it to anything at all?

Rebecca Prejean  
I did go to another learning guild. events last year, it was morning. 2022. Okay. Like, we're in 2023. So yes. And compared to that, I felt like the guild honestly, they put on a great conference, they always do. And that's it from a brand perspective, they put on great conferences. I will say this one to me, much more tech driven. Much more talking about technology and AI and virtual reality and stuff like that. Yeah. So the content was definitely I would say different. Yeah. Yeah. Like they still have talks about Tet. But this one feels super heavy on technology with like demo fest, and you know, things like that, that you can try.

Luis Malbas  
So speaking of demo fest, how about the networking opportunities,

Rebecca Prejean  
network IP networking, amazing. And the really cool thing is that you end up meeting people, and you don't really know who they are, until they come up to you, and talk to you. And you're like, You're from where you're from Penn State that y'all are here. Like you meet some amazing people at this conference. And you really make some great connections. I've made some wonderful connections, not in terms of like, like gigs and things, but really good conversations and connections that I can lean on a little bit, if I have questions in this particular space, but also that can lean on me a little bit. And so it gives you kind of a knowledge partner, to some extent, and with some so many of us being remote, it's helpful. And I was shocked by the people. And the fact that you meet CEOs at this thing, and they don't, they don't fit your mold of what a CEO is. They're just in jeans, a shirt, just walking around like everybody else. So it really does kind of level out that field. Like you don't get that weird kind of hottie feeling that you would get at some conferences, and some events in different places.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, no, that's great. That's good to it's good to hear. Oh, yeah. Kim is saying I always wanted to go to DevLearn. But I don't Dev. And that's what makes me say that. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of, sort of to Rebecca's point, that's, I think that that brand can make it feel a little limiting in that way. But it wasn't, you know, so. So I was there when, when when DevLearn was first created, and and it was supposed to be a lot more techy. It was was by design supposed to be the one event that was going to have more innovative approaches, highlighted and things and then the other event, the learning solutions Conference, which takes place in Orlando, or in Florida, that one was supposed to be more sort of general for instructional designers. Deb was supposed to be the geeky one. And, and so it does still, you know, kind of feel like that. But it really isn't because there's something for everyone at that particular event, and there are kind of has to be, because l&d isn't that specific. Really, you know, there's, there's just, there's just so much to it.

Rebecca Prejean  
Yeah, and I think like you just mentioned, right, it's so multifaceted. Yeah, that we do even if you're not a techie, like, quite frankly, my session talked about some tech, but it was really about us changing our mindsets. So there's really some good thought process, um, sessions that dev learn that people use and you know, kind of utilized throughout what they do.

Luis Malbas  
Love it. So let's, let's talk about some highlights. Anybody in particular, I heard lots of great things about the keynotes. I'll just throw this in there real quick. I went just an overnight you know, I didn't I didn't pay to go to the I mean, I just did the free Expo pass, but from the Bay Area. So outside of San Francisco. I bought from Southwest they cut a plane ticket roundtrip ticket plus one night at the Venetian for $281. So it was actually not bad for me out of pocket. And I spent two days there. So it wasn't wasn't too bad. Anyway. So back to the speakers, things like that, would you think? Oh, wow.

Rebecca Prejean  
In terms of like how knowledgeable they were, I did not meet a speaker that I was thinking to myself, you're unprepared. What are you doing? Because we've all been to those where we're like, Oh, I feel like this was a little bit non prepared kind of thing. I didn't see any of that. The keynotes themselves, like I only got to see one was my first day there. Just because for me, I'm like, I need to step out of the crowd for a bit, especially if I'm about to do things like the next day. But all of the information was poignant. And I observed a lot. So yes, I did listen to the keynotes, I did listen to some of the speakers. But I looked a lot at the audience. Because me, that's how you can tell is a session really good? Is are people getting what they should get like, is the message resonating? And one thing that stood out to me was, again, just how electric people were like the speakers were, and how engaged and interested everybody was, like, just really odd for adults, but just laser focused on I want to make sure that I get everything that I need to get out of this session and everything I can. So trying to think, yeah.

Luis Malbas  
Is there just like one person? Was there any particular session that like, you know,

Rebecca Prejean  
let me look at the one my lips,

Luis Malbas  
because I know everyone, what's his name? Every everybody loves Phil, I think is what the first keynote was. And I knew

Rebecca Prejean  
he was amazing. But for me, I feel like keynotes, most of them are going to be amazing. Yeah. Notes. Essentially, they're not going to usually people aren't going to hire a lackluster keynote. Right, right. Well, you know, it's our the way to go. Yeah. And I'm looking at my list because I love them all. Uh huh. To be quite frankly, I

Luis Malbas  
am curious, though, as an introvert, as somebody you know, because you have to take breaks, right? So how much did you how many sessions did you go to? I mean, can you share that?

Rebecca Prejean  
I went to a total of four. Okay. And that doesn't sound like a lot, but it is we are all of them are about 45 minutes to an hour. Yeah. And then you want to go into the expo when you want to kind of walk around and you want to kind of meet some folks, right? It just becomes a lot for somebody who's introverted. But I will say that even with the breaks, I felt like I got so much that I don't think I could have gotten any more because there is that sweet spot, right? I want to go to all the things but I'm not gonna be able to absorb all the things. Yeah. I've will say in this is one of the ones Betty Janowitz. Okay, I think in this group, like I did go to her session. And what I liked about her in particular, was her taking on immersive learning. For me, that is a place that I almost am scared to see what that comes to. But I will say I feel like she made it accessible. And she made it really simple for even like the lay person to understand. And I've seen her popping up in groups and stuff. And I was really curious, which is part of the reason I went,

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, she's very dynamic. Like I've seen your

Rebecca Prejean  
name all over the place. So I kind of want to see what you got to say. We're in all of these things. And I see you all the time. And she is she's a really dynamic speaker. Which, for me is important because I can go off a bit. When it's session, I did not like her. But part of what I loved about her so much is that she made it really easy to understand immersive learning. Took it out of the space of being in my mind and a lot of people's minds this weird, inaccessible kind of abstract concept and brought it down to earth. Great. So if she's in here, thank you so much. That's a great session. But to me, she's one that stands out in particular, like I said, the keynote was fantastic but I expected him to be fantastic. Or just regular sessions. She was fantastic because she is dynamic and she is able to really break down a con cept in a way that is digestible, that's great, easy to understand, which is something important for everybody. And that makes a great session to me. Excellent.

Luis Malbas  
That's good to know. I do want to ask you, do you think that part of maybe just sort of your meet requiring nor needing to take breaks, do you think it could have just been Vegas in general,

Rebecca Prejean  
could have been, um, my sister actually came with me, okay, like a support person. And she wanted to see where her sister deaths. And so we did go out like and just kind of walked a little bit, to a couple of things. And that was such an overwhelming experience. And we noticed that as the sun started to go down, weird things started to happen. And the atmosphere just changed. Dates the night. And so it was a bit draining, there are a lot of people, it is very crowded, if you are somebody who's introverted, it can be overwhelming, just in terms of the atmosphere, the people, people coming up to you, people are trying to sell you things. Even if you're just looking at shops, they're people trying to sell you stuff. And some of them can be a little aggressive salespeople. But they've got a job to do. So and, and it. But for me taking the breaks. Absolutely. Probably could have been Vegas as well, because it is a it's a different speed from Texas. I mean, we're not doing that here.

Luis Malbas  
Right? No, it's true. And I do think I because I consider myself an introvert and I do have to take breaks. And it made it it was difficult just with the Venetian being across the street and having to go through that whole thing. And then, of course, finding your room. My The room was great. I love the room. And it was nice to be there. And most, you know, I did try to relax as much as possible to sort of just recover. But you know, just talking all day, I ended up like losing my voice that weekend, the following weekend, because I just worked so hard those few days. But yeah, it was very, very, it was it was definitely difficult. And also, the the smoke got to me too. Like I just felt that immediately in my throat. And I'm like, Oh, ouch. Like,

Rebecca Prejean  
Oh, yes. And you really can't avoid it. Right? Because they're right there. Like as soon as you walk into a hotel or the Resort Casino, however you want to word it. Yeah. And I wasn't prepared for that. Yeah, this was my first time being in Vegas ever. And wow. I knew that they had casinos. But in my mind. I was like, well, the casino is completely separate from the hotel, right? No, you're walking through the state of ticket to your elevator to hopefully get to another elevator?

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, just we got a few more minutes here left, and I wanted to ask you it. Could you tell everybody Okay, let's start with this one. What do you think of the expo? The expo?

Rebecca Prejean  
I actually thought that, for those that are maybe weighing whether or not to go, that would be your your partner your use case, right? These sessions themselves are great, like I said, huge amounts to learn. But the networking and things that you see in the software, and the programs that you're introduced to, at the expo are almost invaluable. Because you not only meet, you know, vendors like beyond that so many of us are aware of right articulate, like, those are household names for most l&d people, but she made a lot of smaller companies that maybe has like an LMS or have like some services that they can offer as a vendor. So that's where a lot of that networking comes in, in my mind is just going to the expo, meeting some different people like that I didn't stay too long, because that is a huge room, huge space, lots of people, lots of movement.

Luis Malbas  
Everybody's trying to get your attention.

Rebecca Prejean  
Everybody's trying to get your attention. Everybody has a goal. But the one thing I will say is that at an expo I usually expect a lot of sales type stuff. And yes, there is sales stuff here. Clearly, it's an expo. But I never felt like people were being super crazy, aggressive, or really disrespectful or just really trying to get your business and not actually help you in a way that's valuable. Like they really did kind of take some time the ones I talked to anyway. They took the time to kind of ask what you do who you are, what are your goals, what are your objectives, and some that just didn't line up with where I'm currently at in my career space for various reasons, right cost and all these things but for me, I felt like the next Phil was really, really helpful in terms of also helping you see that even though, you know, we may have this big company that we're all aware of, don't slip up on the smaller guys. Yeah. Because they have a lot to offer as well. It's just their names aren't aren't out there, right. Like they're not posting all over LinkedIn, sometimes they might not have the advertising budget advertising know how. But it just spoke to me to make sure that I do my research a bit more before I pick like a vendor, or something like that, or I picked like a software program. So for me, that was what came from the expo part of it. Networking, also just enlightenment.

Luis Malbas  
So you mentioned beyond Is there any other exhibitors that may have stood out to you at all that you recall?

Rebecca Prejean  
Not really, because I was mesmerized by beyond to be honest with you. They had a fabulous Expo there. So it took a lot of attention and a lot of time. And I talked to like, quite a few in that short time I was there. Right? But no, like none in particular that stood out to me. But that's for me and my needs. I think other people probably would have thought differently, because there's a lot there, but I'm just in a very specific space.

Luis Malbas  
before. Yeah, I think I personally like I've been to that Expo so many times. This was probably the most impressive that I've ever seen. It was huge. Like, some of those booths were incredible. I've never seen it like that before. And you know, even like ELB the elearning brothers had like their booth was just Legos. And just the height of some of them were just so tall. And it was pretty incredible. I I did not realize that l&d would ever have an expo of that size and, and being impressive like that. So it was pretty amazing. It

Rebecca Prejean  
really brings home how many vendors and service there are and how many you don't even realize are in existence flaming, massive. And in my hand, I'm like, Oh, they do this every year. That's a lot. But it was massive. It

Luis Malbas  
is and it's not cheap. It's very, yeah, going over there. And getting yourself in front of folks, is not cheap. The one interesting thing that I heard from multiple folks, is that they were surprised that Adobe wasn't there. But Adobe does do their own event just a few weeks prior to DevLearn. So So yeah, it was it was sort of interesting. Um, so last question. For me, best thing about DevLearn. One of my favorite things is demo fest. What do you think of demo fest?

Rebecca Prejean  
Demo fest to me, I view it as a gateway into seeing what you can really do. If you know your tools. And if you sit and study is what I would say. Because I feel like demo fest is almost like almost like a class but not a class. Okay? Like, because you're looking at these things that people have created, you're looking at these different demonstrations. And in a way you're learning, I could do that. Or I could do a version of that. Or maybe I can't do that right now. But if I learned XYZ tools, I can do that. And you can help my learners in this way. So I viewed it as almost like a class for me, there was one particular portion of demo fests because I have a client that's LGBT centric. And so there was an actual demo of like some programs and stuff that they created. And I really took from that. Some elements of simplicity, because I'm not an another simple designer, like the fancy, but some elements of simplicity and just also how to organize and strategize some different things. So demo fest to me, again, even if all the other things, sold them learn. Demo fest is another place where people can be like, yeah, like that's a learning experience, all in itself. Again, a lot of movement, a lot of stuff going on, but a lot to learn. And as somebody who has been around for a while, sometimes we forget that we don't know everything, right? There are there are definitely people who are better than me. And I saw them in demo fest, and some of these different places. And so it really does help to see some additional perspectives on things that can get built and for me, all in all, what definitely did for me was it helps to awaken some creative things that have probably been dormant and also kind of helped me to read align with some goals that I want to do and figure out where I want to go next. On my journey, especially when we're talking about like tech, like AI and virtual reality and stuff. So demo Fest was a huge part of that, for me figuring out, I want to know how to do that. I'm gonna figure out how to do that. Yeah.

Luis Malbas  
It sounds like that alone was it was a great takeaway, just being able to go to that. I think it was only two hours that you get in there.

Rebecca Prejean  
Yeah, so not super, super lengthy. But even if you stay 1520 minutes, it can get you to thinking about the things that are really possible with lnd tools in things that we encounter every day that sometimes we just didn't think of, because we're all so different.

Luis Malbas  
Right? No, totally. All right. Last question. Based on your experience, would you recommend DevLearn to others in our field, and why you pretty much answered this already. But yes, I

Rebecca Prejean  
highly recommend it. And I said, it's, it's one of those situations where if you have to go to one conference a year, because I do believe that you should probably go to one a year, just to kind of get out there, see what's out there. This is a good one to go to. Because it gives you so many different avenues to participate and to be involved in. Right you have them a fest that you had the expo, but you have the sessions, but you also have workshops, you know, before the conference that you can take advantage of. So there's just a lot of different options. But it really does help you see what's possible, see what else is out there, see other people's thought processes, their opinions, their thoughts. And to me that can only be helpful for what we do. Because what we do isn't done in a vacuum. It's not done in a silo, like part of learning and development. And the beauty in it is that we're all good at different things. And we all have different ideas. And we're all using those things for the same goal, to help people and to help learners and to reach learners. And this is that kind of conference, where you're gonna meet all the people, you're gonna see all the things. And once you're done, I won't be surprised if you don't have a whole goal sheet of things that you want to do. No lie. Like, what last week. Actually, last week, I went and found something and NYU like online, or like a professional service to certificate in XR design. So that was literally something that came out of DEF CON had not thought about it. I thought kind of wanted to maybe take a small course. But I'm like no, like I really want to learn how to design these things, and how to make these things the way that they should be, and in the best way that I can. So it's really a great, great, great conference to get your mind going into rejuvenation

Luis Malbas  
is great to hear. Okay, so but I do want to point out you, you got in because you're a speaker. Yes. So yeah, and it is like earlier, we were talking about how it can be financially, you know, whether or not you get the ROI and going to the conference really depends upon, you know, sort of how you're getting in to begin with, but, um, yeah, if it is something that might be a little tough to, to afford, yeah, think about that. I'm submitting as a speaker. And I did you know, I talked to Russell sweep, and Russell did get in with a press pass. So he went in kind of as a blogger, and somebody was kind of covering the event. So I guess that that's a possibility there. And then of course just like my own personal experience, I went and just did the expo it's still it was still a really really valuable experience for me. I think that the network part of it is is important because I get to see a lot of a lot of good you know, good friends people I haven't seen in years I was able to reconnect with again and that's always nice. And then and of course networking with with some of the community I did go out to dinner with a few folks and and that was really wonderful too so so that was important. All right and let me just check we've got a condo let's see Julia saying glad I got to hear this great advice if I prepare for the experience save the money so sandwich sessions I see gonna make the best of this potentially overwhelming conference. Yeah, no, absolutely. Um Rebecca thank you so much for for sharing your perspective on the event. I was really glad that you were here and and and a guest so this was basically a Rebecca, Rebecca show today and thanks everybody for showing up in the in the chat and listening. I do have another event that is in the world. works right now. I can never remember I haven't. Remember, I haven't put the name of it to memory. But it's the talent Talent Development Conference that I'm trying to put together. That one's going to be the next one. So if you can't go to TLD chat.us, check out some of the posts that I've made about that. I can definitely can use some help in building that one out. And with that, I'm going to go ahead and end the session. Thanks again, Rebecca. Thanks, everybody. And we'll see you next time. Bye.