Why Training Teams Are A Waste! with Ian Crook

Luis Malbas  
Hello, everybody. Welcome to the training learning and development community. Happy Monday to you. So glad to see everyone here. Let's see. My peacock is in the house Mike. It is so good to have you. Nice to see you. Jenny Irving Kara was in for a little bit but she had to bail. I don't know it seems like in your somewhat popular people wouldn't

Ian Crook  
go that far but yeah, it's definitely died down since I deleted Twitter.

Luis Malbas  
Is that what it is?

Ian Crook  
Yeah, I'll just say I'll just say it's that.

Luis Malbas  
Darn that Twitter. Let's see who else we got. We got Mike here. Laura Middlesworth is here. Kim. Leticia Jennifer Bobby Vernon, nice to see you get solace here. Kelly Oh, Joe cook Julia Sheehy. Gosh, we got a good group. This is nice. And it might be what like Ian mentioned earlier, it might be that click Beatty title that he suggested for our conversation this morning. Yeah, it's all

Ian Crook  
it's all. It's technically my fault that it's clickbait. So if anybody gets mad, wow, Louis is now going the clickbait route. No, blame me.

Luis Malbas  
Well, I never do it. I never do it. But I thought you know what this is? So we're gonna do it this time. We're gonna do it this time. Why training teams are a waste. Yeah. Which is really actually, I mean, as click Beatty as it is. It's very, very fun. Yeah, because it's about exercise. This is what everybody does for a living as they do this, you know, they do this training team thing. So, yeah, but I have like, a short intro for you that I kind of put together using your LinkedIn profile. And honestly, I tried to use chat GPT to figure out if I could find more.

Ian Crook  
Work totally fine.

Luis Malbas  
We're like a pharmaceutical company, Instructional Designer, in charge of like, 1000s of 1000s of teams. And I was like, huh, that doesn't that's not right. That's different.

Ian Crook  
That seems weird. I love that they love that in the industry. They say oh, the AI is just hallucinating. And it's like that's what I that's what I want to rely on something that occasionally hallucinates.

Luis Malbas  
Alright, so this is what I did come up with. I don't know. There might actually still be some some vestiges of the chat GPT in it, but I have Ian crook is an experienced l&d Professional based in Bristow Virginia. He currently serves as an as an instructional designer at Amazon, where he is responsible for taking source material from either the training specialists or the SMEs and finding the best method to produce training for both learning retention and cost slash time perspectives. Ian is an active participant in the l&d community having contributed to industry events and publications. Is that last sentence correct? One hot

Ian Crook  
second. I think my headphones have just kicked out. Oh, be anything with me. Unless it like had some sort of weird audio issue. I swear. All right. Just think I made have to restart a audio device. Y'all can still hear me though. Right? We can hear you cool. Okay, all right. Let's see beakers. And

Luis Malbas  
I'm getting lots of emails. I'm going to turn those off real quick. I think it's everybody signing up. Right? And can you hear us at all now? In or no?

Ian Crook  
Okay, I may have to restart. Like I may have to rejoin in because it's just not picking up my my speakers anymore. Okay, whatever reason, so let me go ahead and do that real quickly.

Luis Malbas  
Got it. Um, I am seeing a comment in here. Joe Cook is saying teams is a waste, zoom and Adobe Connect are better. Mmm, that is interesting. We should talk about that sometime. Joe. I would like to learn more about why teams is a waste. I haven't used it myself. I actually I was in a meeting using it last week, but other than that experience, because it was just a meeting. So I wouldn't know. Let's see. It's all my headphones are waste. Yes. Okay. Um, yeah, I'm excited about talking to Ian on this one. I many of you may know that. I sent out a request to do some interviews with folks like on the member side and Last time I did this last fall, I think I got three responses to doing any showcases or topics or anything like that. And I was really bummed. And so we haven't been doing these types of events in Crowdcast for a while. But then I sent out another one. And now we're basically booked up until August, and my schedule is busier than I had expected. So, so that is interesting. Um, but I am actually, here's a little little tidbit, I'm having problems with Crowdcast. The last few meetings we've had here in Crowdcast, I've been unable to download the recordings afterwards. And so for instance, last week's recording with, with with Alan not to chew on PDF accessibility I couldn't get to. And so they're trying to get it to me, but I might have to be looking for I might have to look for a crowd cast alternative. So we'll see what happens. All right. If I can,

Ian Crook  
can you hear me?

Luis Malbas  
You got your earbuds in? Or what are they? What are their air? Air? Camera? Yeah, those and you

Ian Crook  
can hear me right? I can hear you. Awesome. Okay. Wow, it wouldn't like people who know me, it wouldn't be me. If, literally, me if there literally wasn't some sort of tech issue. I've got a weird setup.

Luis Malbas  
All right, so how about this? Let, can we just get into it? And can you tell us why training teams are a waste or, or not? And I'm just gonna, let me see, I'm gonna try this here, where I pin my son into the Okay, there we go. So, I'm gonna let you take over? And let me know if you need me to do anything.

Ian Crook  
Yeah, go for it. All right. So when we're talking about waste, first off, I'm speaking strictly from a Lean Six Sigma, sort of mindset. Waste is, it can be summarized in a way that says like, alright, what doesn't provide direct value to the end customer. Now, the argument, the argument that comes from is that like, you know, training teams, when training teams do come in, like, you know, we're helping that. And, you know, the end value streams, or the end value props to provide that value to the end customer. But that's still technically indirect. And that's kind of the the thought process, that really the title of this entire discussion talks about is that training teams are technically indirect, towards that value that companies and organizations give to a to, to make the company money. And that's another thing I kind of also have to kind of do a, a quick thing as well is that this doesn't necessarily apply towards academia. This is primarily towards companies that, you know, private sector type stuff. So when operations is, is thinking about Lean, it's all about maximizing value and minimizing waste in their processes. I'm not going to go into every single bit of what one of those wastes are. However, there are ones that I do want to touch base on, because I believe they touch on training specifically. And one of those is logistics. Now, most people, when they think logistics, it's focused on moving a product from one end to another, whether it's Amazon, putting stuff in boxes and delivering it to your house, or whether it's, you know, something's going to a warehouse, a distribution center, trucks, on the road, airplanes in the sky, that type of stuff. And that's not that's not the whole story. Because really, what training teams are is the logistics of knowledge transfer to your organization. And that's kind of the big aha moment that I personally had. Or it's just like, oh, I need to kind of change how I'm thinking about working with you know, working with org leaders, because a lot of the time especially if you're a training team that's associated with an operations side of thing, they are focused on the direct value that they give their customers. They are not focused so much on you know, our is is the, I don't know is the desk setup, right, unless it applies directly to reduce waste towards provide Adding value. And the same thing goes for training, they're focusing on their employees providing value. And if the blocker to providing that value or increasing that value is, you know, they don't know, they don't know the material, they don't know a certain thing, or if they aren't exhibiting certain behaviors, to provide that value efficiently, that's where the training team starts coming in, and we provide and we facilitate the the logistics of knowledge transfer, so that we can enact that, you know, overarching change within within an organization, and then we measure ourselves against that change. So that we can prove that like, although, you know, we we have to exist, so to speak, it is a situation where we say, you know, we we provide more value existing than we do not existing. So, there are kind of two aspects that I think we should all be focusing on the in a training team, and that there's the waste that's present, or that's present in operations. And again, that kind of goes into standard Lean Six Sigma. But then there's also like the waste in the training itself, which can include things like unnecessary content, redundant material, unnecessary administrative tasks, inefficient delivery methods. So touching on the waist inside of operations, and how we're supposed to partner with things like, you know, global process owners, and the change management folks. And stuff is, we're supposed to have that mindset to like, how are we helping the organization provide value more efficiently and more effectively to the customer. And that could be understanding and finding those knowledge gaps that only attack the behaviors that are necessary to meet that objective, instead of giving a whole curriculum so to speak. So case, point, and example is, I think everyone here has run into a circumstance where they've either created or made a one on one class, a 102, class and 103 class advanced courses, Job A, like this whole, this whole curriculum, this whole degree path, learning journey, where they start as a new hire, and they have to go through it. And the example I'm going to do is a, like a sales position, if the hiring bar and the job role guideline, and what they were hired for us as they need to be set up for, you know, negotiating, and they know those negotiating skills to a fine, you know, to specificity, because they're getting hired to the Oregon hopefully, the org is looking at, like what they need to fill in the gaps to provide additional value and to grow and scale we should be focusing on All right, well, the org doesn't need a Foundation's to negotiations training. That's more of a performative issue instead of a training issue. And that's more of a discussion that happens between their manager and the individual instead of just doing a carpet, you know, a carpet blanks training that says, All right, well, you know, two people had issues with negotiating. So everybody in this 1000, person org is now going to have to take fundamentals of negotiating. And that's, it's a huge waste of everyone's time, because from an operational perspective, if they're getting taken away from doing their job and providing that direct value to the customer, they are not effective. And we as a training team, are facilitating that. And from an operations as like an operations manager or an Operations Director, if they were to kind of come into that circumstance, and look at it and say, Well, I thought we hired people who are already good at negotiating. Why are they spending 20 plus hours? In negotiating training, like what's going on? And then, you know, the training team has to like facilitate answering that and a lot of the time it's scrambling what you can to justify your existence, meaning like, oh, no, this is good. This is good. They have to know the basics before the whatever, but like, it's still not communicating that big question of Okay, but we hired people that were already supposed to have negotiating skills. Are we not meeting that requirement? And if we're not like, that's, maybe now it's a training opportunity towards the recruitment process? Like how do we hire people who have good negotiating skills, and that can help form the basis of the purpose behind negotiation fundamentals and stuff. So really going into operational mindset, that's that's the big focus is why why do they need to take this training in the first place when they could be providing value? Going into the training team aspect, you know, we've got a million tools in our Batman utility tool belt, to meet the needs of the customer, whether it's job aids, podcasts, elearning things, videos, instructor led virtual and threat, you know, we've got, we've got a ton of capability as producers of content. And it's our job to make sure that not only are we producing the correct content for our audience, but that we're also applying lean methodology to the creation of that content. For instance, this is going to be a little bit anecdotal, because I don't have the numbers next to me anymore. But just having templates, just having basic templates set up can save anywhere between 800 to 900 ish dollars per hour of training development.

Just because it was built out beforehand. And that right there is, I mean, that's easy pickins for just making your team more efficient. And, you know, building, you know, things like building out templates so that when a customer does come in and say hey, we actually have a behavioral problem, you do your needs analysis and say like, okay, yeah, no, this is actually a behavioral problem that we need to address to meet business goals. We can turn around and work with those templates and say, All right, well, here's the training, let's solve the problem as quickly as possible. Because it all falls back on to going back from the operational perspective, getting people as value focused and value driving as possible in your organization. So when, you know, all of this is all said and good, like, yes, we shouldn't be doing our job. Effective, we should be doing our job efficiently. But it always kind of goes back into that question of how do we measure it? Like, Where's where's the measurements? And, you know, if you follow Kirk, Patrick's models of evaluations, like okay, well, how do we get level four? How do we get level four? It's always how do we get level four? It's the holy grail of training is like, how did we impact with dollar figures? On operations, and that goes back into well, what what is operations really care about right now? Operations, I can guarantee you operations will have KPIs that are tied directly to value generation, whether that's sales conversions, whether that's widgets produced whether that's whatever, there will be direct indicators to say like, alright, this team is doing well. And when I say KPI, I don't mean every metric mountain, you know, known to existence, KPIs, or key performance indicators, which is just a single metric or two, that determine how well a process is going. And as a training team, we need to be latching on to those business and organizational KPIs. And we also need to understand and know the the big impact towards P zero goals, mission statements, vision statements, you know, one year plans for your plans, five year plans, and focus in on what those KPIs are and what metrics support that KPI so that we can say, alright, if the goal is to increase sales by 10% this year, and one of the KPIs is sales conversions. And here are the metrics that support conversion and that could mean you know whether things get updated in the CRM tool, automated emails getting sent out and read. Whatever those look like for your organization, those are the things that we have to start tying towards our tying our metrics as training teams, to the operational side, because it's that translation, that operations understands the real value, and the force multiplier that our trainings teams can provide for the organization. Like, that's kind of like the cool thing about what training is, in general, is like, you know, if we save five minutes on a process through a small behavioral change, and that five minute processes sent out to, you know, 1000 plus person, or like we're justifying our existence in a single training for like, a single headcount, so we'd be crazy not to associate even more and really kind of dig our heels into, alright, what does operations care about? What are the things that they measure to determine success? And how are we determining our own success to our organization's success to those determining factors to and that kind of goes into kind of ties back to the making content that only bridges that gap? A, An example I like to give is, you typically don't teach handymen how to use a hammer, you teach them how to build the shed, if that's, you know, if they have a new design, but you know, you'd be wasting not only your development time, but also the organizations are the hand, you know, the handyman, it's time on something that they should already know, got coming into the coming into a job. Going back and going back in terms of measurement. So once we determine how to connect the dots between like, alright, this is what the business actually cares about, we need to start focusing on that gap assessment. Whether that's referencing it against current state, you know, do a survey job shadows or something, to get some of that qualitative information. Going into that, and mixing that with what the expectations are for the job. The job role, we can get an idea of like, okay, well, here's, here's what the business is currently capable of doing. And the job role itself says they need to be meeting these certain types of behaviors. And we have now partnered with the organization to say like, okay, here are your KPIs metrics, and your goals and stuff for any given amount of time, we should be able to then extrapolate what are the specific behaviors we need to kind of sink our teeth into to solve that problem to solve to bridge that gap? Then, of course, we apply what we do best instructional design methodologies, what's the best way of doing it? Making sure that we're chunking it making sure that, you know, if we, if you follow mayor's 13, that it's not visually disruptive, increase retention, like we know how to make content, typically, that says, Alright, the learner learns something, we can measure that. But tying it back to the operations is what's more important because that's what operations cares about, and especially in times of layoffs, and you know, the nonsense that's happening in the tech sector, the tech sector, like we have to be able to really communicate, hey, the training team. Here's how we impact here's how we impact the organization. We can say on an individual level. All right, yeah, they learned something. Did it change the behavior? Did you know can we at least correlate an uptick in sales conversions? Can we do something to say that what we did was worth everyone's time and effort to create and deploy and pull people away from from taking that training? This is where also like, like this mentality is also where a lot of operational managers get stuck on we'll just make it an elearning or make it a video because they're they're literally only focusing on how do I make it so a bunch of people don't have to leave their desk work. doing and go to a ILP and just not be productive for the next year? How do I make this like a, you know, a 15 minute video? I always I see your PACCAR your head back on?

Luis Malbas  
I did I have a question for you. Yeah, go

Ian Crook  
for it. Because, you know,

Luis Malbas  
I know you've been, you know, mentioning operations a lot, do you have a background in operations at all?

Ian Crook  
So I don't have a specific background and operations. But before I did my journey into finding out that instructional design is like the coolest thing ever, I really focused on change management and process improvement and business development. So like, focusing in on how can we strategically and tactically change an organization to meet business objectives? And how do we move from the old to the new, and that's kind of like where I was introduced to instructional to instructional design as a whole, is because there are two roads you take to institute change. And one is the systematic approach where you get software developers and toolmakers, and all that other fun stuff. And the other half is, well, there are people that need to also behaviorally change in your organization. And who does that, and it's us. And the more I started looking into it, the more I just kept felling falling in love with it. So although I don't have a specific background, in it, I have done my formative learning on, on change management, business process improvement and like operations.

Luis Malbas  
So when you when you came into when you came, when you started as an instructional designer, we did you get into it knowing that you wanted to have kind of an operations take on the entire process? Or was there a specific instance or, or instances that occurred where you're like, I have to shift my perspective now. And if I integrate operational ideas into you, my instructional design processes, I'll be much more successful for my organization,

Ian Crook  
I would probably say it was like, once you once you know it, that you can't unknow it. So like, you kind of learn and start thinking about like, oh, how can I make that more efficient? Oh, how can I, like communicate on that particular way? And when I started getting more involved in the instructional design community as a whole, that's where I found out like, oh, this seems to be missing a missing skill. Half the time is that partnership with operations. And then everyone gets really weird when operations is, you know, asking them to do a million things. And it's because they don't think like a trainer does, they think like operations does. And having that, like, I think that's helped me out a lot is that I can act as a translator in a lot of instances, but also help people understand the language of operations.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, and myself, like, it's all I have a background and operations. But, you know, and so your intention, like as far as process improvement and that type of thing. You know, that is definitely an operational thing, because you want to get lean, as lean as possible. Do all of that. I would I mean, I'm just really curious about how other instructional designers that even in the audience, if their perception of the like, if hearing all of this is something new. But and is this something typical for the organization that you work for right now, for with Amazon? Is that something that, you know, your team talks about? You know, because it's such a, you know, it's a big tech company?

Ian Crook  
Yeah. Um, so, um, well, first off, I do want to say that like, my opinions are my own, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. But, you know, kind of going into the Amazon leadership principles of things like dive, deep invent and simplify. And, you know, think big, like, all of the leadership principles are always about how do we drive value for our customers. And if you look up the like the customer flywheel or the Amazon flywheel like that is absolutely another aspect that like, the more you keep that in the back of your head while developing and partnering with operational stakeholders, like, okay, it's starting to make more sense now, like what they care about, and I need to align with what they care about, because that's how I drive value for our end customers. And stuff. So Amazon functionally is focused on operations. Will stuff because it is, you know how we drive value for our customers. But that doesn't necessarily mean that like Training Training Teams shouldn't exist that things like dei shouldn't exist, like all these things that some other folks may say like, Oh, it's a waste of time and money, like, Well, no, can we act as a force multiplier, and there's science now that says, things like the AI actually make make organizations more productive, more thought provoking, more imaginative, and problem solving. And that's the same type of mindset that we also have to have with instructional design. It's just like, how do we be that force multiplier for operations, not just for learning, but for operations?

Luis Malbas  
I like Bobby's comment here. The best thing that happened to me as an LSD was being placed on a two strategic design team where we blended dx, UX, BPI, PM, Alex D, and design thinking all these different things. Yeah, they would all contribute heavily to being a better instructional designer or learning experience designer. So that's very cool, Bobby. Yeah. And so let me just throw this one at you. If how, I mean, what would you do if you were like an instructional designer? Like, say, in higher ed, and you needed to like, you want it to facilitate this emphasis that you're talking about?

Ian Crook  
So like, in the end, it's always knowing about, like, what is the overarching objective, like the strategic objective of whatever your organization's trying to do. Like I said before, this may not necessarily apply to academia as much, because it's not as operationally focused. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't an overarching objective. So let's say higher ed, or even like K through 12, like one of the objectives is to create knowledgeable citizens just in general, like raise the bar for just the citizens of you know, the country that you're working in, and the state and the county in and etc. And, again, driving that, like what is already like, instead of just thinking about, like, giving them the whole library, what are the specific books people need, like, we all talk about, like, pre and post assessments, but like, are we actually using those pre assessments properly, instead of it just being a Oh, you're taking a pre assessment. And that means you just, you know, you don't need to take the next test or whatever. Instead, it's like, oh, this pre assessments telling me that like, my class, my or my, whatever, already knows, like, the first 20% of this topic, don't teach that topic, build the knowledge on top of what they already know, reinforce it in that new knowledge anchor is the best way you can apply good instructional design to the content, but ultimately, like only cross the gap that is, is there instead of building you know, the Mackinac Bridge over a creek. Right, right.

Luis Malbas  
Do you do any blogging at all? Have you ever written about this operational mindset kind of thing

Ian Crook  
I wrote, I wrote, and a very, very poorly written article on Medium. And it's like, the only thing on my face about process like process design was an instructional design. You know, there's this whole concept of cowboy coding in the software development world. And it's just that, like, you're building software, and you're building solutions without there being any structure around those solutions. So I coined a term called lawless learning, which is basically the same fundamental just like, is there structure behind what you're teaching? Or are you just shotgunning bass, you know, from the hip, in hopes that like, oh, well, this provides value because it makes a loud noise and it looks flashy. And it's like, that's, that's not good. That's not good either. So like having the structure behind how you develop it. This is kind of an expansion on that, where it says like, not only having structure but having purpose behind your team's existence, really from an operational mindset, or a strategic level mindset.

Luis Malbas  
Love it. We'd love to explore that more. That's, I think that would be a really intriguing topic to discuss. Um, let's see Kim's asking what applying use cases help us see learning? Operationally?

Ian Crook  
I would absolutely think so. Um, use cases, especially in, you know, I mean, we have to have use cases for Oh, my God, I'm blanking simulations and stuff. scenario, but wow scenario, that's the word I was looking for scenario based modules and, and stuff. Like, we have to have use cases for there anyway. But really kind of look at it from like an even a marketing perspective. Like, I love what Bobby was even saying about like LSD, and you're talking about customer experience, and user experience. And like, all these other things, like, marketing has figured it out. Now, granted, it's all profit motive. And our should be learning motive, but like, they've who are your demographics? Who are we selling to? How are they going to be utilizing this thing that we're giving them so that from, from marketing that they buy more and know more and engage with our product more. And same thing should go with learning, like, marketing is just behavioral change towards buying and engaging with a particular product, so that they can make money, whereas learning is, you know, just focus it on learning? Like, it's the same kind of data though. And it is use cases are fan tastic for scenario based stuff, but make it part of your needs analysis, make it part of your ingestion process? What's the use case? And What problems are we solving with? With what people are proposing? Like before you can say like, alright, we're storyboarding, we're starting to design we're starting to figure all that other stuff. Exactly. Make it part of audience analysis so that we have a better idea of like, how, what what is this behavior we're trying to get to? And how are people going to interact with even our ideas of training?

Luis Malbas  
Then he's got this question here. Is operational mindset, the same as performance first approach in ID?

Ian Crook  
I would say like, yes, and no, um, but I think it's more psychological than what's like written on paper. When someone looks at, like performance mindset, it's all about like, you know, that grinds that mindset. Coffee is for closers, type nonsense, which just isn't, you know, it's, it's silly. And, like, that's, that's what operations thinks of typically, with the with performance based stuff. If you're not meeting performance, you are failing at your job. And we all know that there's a multitude of gray contrasted between those that binary statement. And that's where like, operations would know more of that, if training teams partnered with their operational stakeholders and leaders better and help communicate the behavior of workers in general. Because we know, we know, like, we should know better the behaviors of individual workers, and how they learn and how they interact with each other and how they just engage with the work they do. Because we have to optimize it. Where as operational stakeholders and leaders have to focus more on meeting those KPIs and optimizing the business, which includes standard operating procedures and policies and all that other fun stuff. They have to look at it from a higher level than just the individual at all times to meet their objectives. So we're there to help consult, to consult them on just how people are going to be interacting with some of this stuff. And this, this change. Now, if you're also lucky to have a change management team, they're supposed to help out a ton. But like, remind your operational stakeholders that like empathy is a good thing. Having feelings makes you human. Don't don't go that route.

Luis Malbas  
That's great. Yeah. And this is I mean, we've hit our time, but I this is a great conversation. This is really intriguing. I can I mean with the chat and everything. Definitely some great stuff here. Kim saying I'm even wondering if what I learned about writing software requirements might apply for our deliverables using jargon. From ops might help us communicate with them and get approval for budget

Ian Crook  
bazillion percent, because their own I mean, like they build their documents on operational terminology. Like they build their budgets out. And especially if you're tied to the budget of an operational team, if you want any of that budget, you're going to have to speak their language more than the instructional design language. Because that's, that's like, we know this terminology, because we work it every day. They don't work every day, they've got other things to also worry about on top of whether the behavior of the business and performance is being met. Behaviorally, So, force multiply, and maybe that's where we need negotiating training. Instead of the sales team, like that's a that's a gap and behavior and instructional design answers negotiating so like, maybe don't give it to the salespeople give it to the IDs.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. This has been a great conversation really enjoyed it. It seems like it's something that they we can talk about more really cool session today. Appreciate the pragmatic approach a lot. This is good stuff. Where can people find you? You're no longer on Twitter.

Ian Crook  
LinkedIn, primarily. You can always email me at me at ibm crook.com. Let me calm Yeah, but LinkedIn is probably the best place to reach me. And just ping me there. Otherwise, email me. Kind of figuring out where I live now. To be honest.

Luis Malbas  
I hear Yeah, I hear I don't think you're alone there. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Until blue sky what is it? Is it blue sky? What's the the

Ian Crook  
blue skies the new one by Jack Dorsey. I've signed up for it. There's also like Mastodon which is like a decentralized Twitter. Yeah, like, I don't know. It's it's like that weird in between of like MySpace and Facebook showing up. And but instead, like everyone is way more ingrained in the internet now. So we don't necessarily know how this is going to explode in our faces, culturally, or we have and just, it doesn't look good so far.

Luis Malbas  
We'll just have to ask Chad GPT. And I'm sure exactly, it'll have an answer. Right. Thank you so much for joining us today. Yeah, and let's let's do this again. We have to do this again. I'm so glad that I reached out with my with my little email out to everybody. Yeah, we had so we had this opportunity to talk but you obviously have a ton of wisdom in in the l&d space. So it'd be wonderful if you could share more of it at some point soon. So let's get together again.

Ian Crook  
Yeah. Awesome.

Luis Malbas  
Thanks, everybody. Thanks again. In Wednesday, we have a member showcase Liz Stefan from nifty learning. Liz also has a podcast called lnd spotlight. So we'll be talking to Liz on Wednesday. And then Friday. We have another member showcase guest DJ, I can't remember first name Trista just Tris Hennessy, VR AR stuff. So that'll be fun too. So a couple more times as we were getting together, and hopefully we'll see you then. Thanks again in Bye, everybody.

‍

‍