Making the Most of the Unknown with Heidi Kirby

Luis Malbas  
Yeah. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the training learning and development community. Thanks for joining us happy Wednesday to you. Today we have Heidi Kirby with us who has a really interesting topic that she's going to discuss it pretty personal. And it's very professional too, of course, but making the most of the unknown. And what we're going to be discussing is, is Heidi has been on the job search recently resigned from her last position as an instructional designer. And we're just going to discuss some of the things that she's going through some of what her journey is like now stuff she's discovering, and all together some really interesting personal discoveries, I think, and yeah, we're just going to get into it. So thanks for for joining us and doing this one it.

Heidi Kirby  
Yeah, of course. Happy to be here.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, no, I'm very excited. I know that I forget, I think I sent a message to you. And we were gonna do a member showcase or something like that, but rather wait till I was had while I was working. But then we're like, let's talk about the fact that you're not working. Because I actually, yeah, and I also, you know, we're connected on LinkedIn. And the stuff you've been posting has been really, really interesting. It's pretty provocative, and I think worth worth a discussion. So everybody, I've got a couple poll questions. If you guys want to check those out, it'd be interesting to see what the results are for that. And then we've also broken down the conversation into a group of questions. If you look in the bottom of your screen, you'll see an ask a question area, feel free to add one it looks like the Teesha already added a question there too. And yes, so let's get started first with Heidi, why don't you go ahead and just introduce yourself. Don't forget about your podcast. Just tell us a little bit about who you are.

Heidi Kirby  
Yeah, so I'm Heidi Kirby. I got my start in learning as a college English professor, and then moved into the l&d space I'm currently pursuing and hopefully finishing soon a PhD in Instructional Design and Technology. And also, of course, I have an LNB podcast called the block or building learning and organizational culture podcast, where I get to just have really cool people in l&d, come on and chat with me. And then I get to just share it with everyone. So yeah, that's, uh, that's the quickest elevator speech I think I've ever given.

Luis Malbas  
And we were talking before you came on the broadcast, we're kind of talking about the last few years and sort of your journey as an instructional designer so far, can you sort of maybe give us some background on that, like, you went College English professor, and then you moved into this whole thing called instructional design? What was that? Like? Like?

Heidi Kirby  
Yeah, absolutely. So um, I was a college English professor, as an adjunct. And if anyone who is listening has ever worked as an adjunct, you know that it is not consistent in terms of schedule or pay. And so when I became pregnant with my son, I was like, this is not, this isn't going to cut it. But I had also, during my teaching career, started to I pursued a master's in education. And so I had learned that instructional design was a thing that people could do for money. And I was like, You know what, maybe I'll, I'll try this out. And so I actually started my Ph. D. program first, and then had the idea that eventually I was going to transition into this instructional design career. But after a couple semesters, I was like, I've already been doing all of this in the classroom, why not just try to leverage those skills and find a find a position. And so it took me about a good six months to kind of learn all of the things I needed to know to make that kind of career switch slash transition. But the person I met at NASA, who hired me into my first instructional designer job was willing to take a chance on me and take me under her wing and teach me a ton of things. And so I landed my first role at NASA of all places, you know, no big deal or anything, but um, you know, and so I worked there until she left and then I was like, Alright, this is, this is kind of a good stopping point for me as well. And so I ended up working as an instructional designer for a large health insurance company here in Cleveland. And I was part of a much, much bigger team of IDs and I've been since one of seven. It was really great because it was a lot of just everyday design work and really just kind of digging in And so after having a couple heart to hearts with my my boss over there, I realized that she really didn't see me as the kind of person who would be a future leader or be eligible for a promotion. And I was like, Well, I do see myself as a leader. So I'm going to see what else is out there. And I was able, actually, the day I had a conversation with her about a potential promotion was the day a recruiter from another company called me and asked me if I'd be interested in interviewing for another job. And so I ended up at that organization. I was then I was there for about a year. And then I was laid off due to COVID. and picked up a contract with a small startup here in Cleveland and my small startup, I mean, it was me and two other people. And so I did that for a little while. And then I had my most recent position, which was the manager of learning solutions, leading basically a customer education team.

Luis Malbas  
Nice. Wow. Okay, so a couple questions here I have for you, because I do want to get into your vision as an l&d leader. But prior to that, that six months, you said after you left as an adjunct professor, a the six months it took for you to sort of get your head wrapped around instructional design. What did you do in that six months? What were what were some of the things you did,

Heidi Kirby  
I was still agitating a little bit like I was still doing that part time. But really, it was, there was a lot of podcasts that I was listening to a lot of, actually TL DC to give you guys a plug, like tuning into the webinars and things like that anything that was like, free that I could consume, to kind of filled some of those skill gaps. The other thing is that I was really bad at visual design, like really bad at visual design. So I took some time to kind of do like the it was Lynda back then. But like the LinkedIn learning courses and read, like the non designers design book, and things like that, to kind of improve those skills to

Luis Malbas  
Okay, so kind of just a really, maybe informal, like, yeah, option of all kinds of instructional design stuff, and all of that. So, now I know that it was kind of the primary thing about about this conversation was you wanted to talk about what the reasons were, that you had, why you wanted to resign from from your last position. So let's talk about that.

Heidi Kirby  
Yeah, so the first thing I just want to acknowledge is that, like, I really realize the amount of privilege that I have to be able to resign without something backed up, because I haven't always been in that position. But I was uniquely able to do that this time around. And so I just want to acknowledge that I completely understand that not everyone can do that. Not everyone has the financial means that you know, whatever means to be able to do that. But luckily, I was able to kind of work things out with my husband and say, like, let's give this a try, like, but really, what it came down to, for me was a few things, it was that the role that I was in was not the role that I started, the things that I was doing day to day, were not what I was supposed what I was brought on to do, right. So there was a whole goal and vision that I was asked to create as part of coming on as a new leader in learning and development. And I was asked to like redo a lot of the training, to really kind of RE, you know, put in, put a new spin on things a new vision. And then when it came time to enact that vision, I also didn't have the support in terms of like the resources, financially, human resources that I needed to be able to see that through. And so those were kind of the biggest things for me. And what was really odd was that I did it took me a really long time to realize how unhappy I was with the role as it had progressed. And so I was actually talking to my therapist about how like, I didn't know why, but I was just so depressed. And she was like, Well, what about work and I'm like, you know, I'm not stressed out. I'm not really even working on anything because everything's kind of on hold right now. And she was like, Is that a problem for you? And that question flipped on me like that was so eye opening because I was like, Yeah, you know, we have this mentality that you to be unsatisfied with your work. Your job that you have to be crazy busy or burnt out or overworked. But sometimes it could just be that it's not what you thought it was going to be, or that you're not busy enough or that you're not innovating enough.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, so it wasn't it ended up not being kind of the challenge that you were expecting.

Heidi Kirby  
Yeah, yeah. And I was also doing a ton of facilitation of training. And that's why I got out of the classroom. I was not really, I didn't want to do that. So,

Luis Malbas  
wow, that's really, really interesting. Um, and so now and so you, you resigned, and now you are looking for something new? And so what kind of like what have what kind of vision Have you created for yourself? In fact, you know, Leticia has a, a question in here asking, what plan? Have you three? Very

Heidi Kirby  
good question.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah. For your job search?

Heidi Kirby  
Yeah. So I have to admit that before, I have been kind of like the shotgun approach person where it's like, apply to 150 jobs, so that you can get one or two interviews, and but I would never give that advice to other people when I would talk to them about their own career. And so someone finally had to a very good friend of mine had to finally be like, Hey, listen, take your own advice, and stop the shotgun approach. And so that really made me have to take a step back and look at what is it that I care about? What is it that I want, and they're like, there are so many different career career resources out there that I could list off that helped contribute to this. But basically, what it came down to was, I had to decide what I wanted from like the learning and development standpoint, right. And so I'd really like to build a learning function, right? That's something I feel passionate about. I am very tired of hearing. The this is how we've always done it. And I'm very innovative and open to change. So I've been predominantly applying to an interviewing with startups, specifically, because of that kind of build it from the ground up mentality. The other thing is, I really enjoy leading people, I really enjoy helping people coaching people. If you've talked to me, you know that that's kind of my jam. And so I am really looking for more of a people leadership role. But then, my dear friend, Aaron, Chancellor, who is like very much about your personal brand, told me that I needed to go on Glassdoor and pick like your, your top three, it's like a top three priorities that you're looking for in a new job in mind, we're the compensation and benefits package as a whole. This strong company leadership and a company's culture and values. And so like, aside from the learning and development thing, you also have to pick what is what are the things that matter most to you, and then find the companies find the roles that that applies to, and then it helps you really narrow down your search. And also just putting myself out there and letting people know that I'm looking, you know, I have a great network of people who have sent me leads introduce me to people they know things like that who who've really helped along the process. Mm hmm.

Luis Malbas  
How about that whole experience where you're doing the research part of it? And on Glassdoor? Was that difficult at all? Or what would you how would you describe that? Was it? Was it a challenge? Or

Heidi Kirby  
was it you mean, picky? picking those kinds of yeah,

Luis Malbas  
those things? Yeah.

Heidi Kirby  
Um, no, cuz it's like a pre populated list. And it's like, I don't know how to, there's like a list of like, 10 or 12 things. So it literally took me 10 minutes, maybe to say what's most important to me. You know, it may not take everyone that that short of time, but I've worked in a bunch of different places. So I feel like I have a little bit better of an idea of what I'm what I'm not looking for. So, um, but yeah, it's just like, it's, I forget which section it's in. But it's just on like the website on Glassdoor where you like go to fill out your profile. It has you like, what are the most important things to you? Yeah, and it just other ones are like work life balance, promotion opportunities, kind of things like that.

Luis Malbas  
That's great. Wow, interesting. Um, yeah, but it is going to be just limited to the companies I suspect that are like participating in Glassdoor. Right, so it only be like full that are using like Glassdoor related services to try to find employees.

Heidi Kirby  
I'm not always it's more of like a way to kind of like Aaron was like, You need to look at this every day. It's more of like a personal mantra you guys see yourself? Yeah, for sure. Most of my jobs, my actual searching is done through LinkedIn. Ah, I see. I just find that it's it's got the biggest umbrella for postings, but I'll look at Google every once in a while, too.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, I just want to mention real quick, just a quick tidbit here in the polls, because we've got the two polls going. There two questions. The first one asking, Are you currently looking for work? And the majority is, like 63.6% are looking for work that are in this in this TLD cast right now. And then also, my second question was, have you changed jobs since the pandemic began? And same number 63.6. As Yes, so that's a that's a really interesting, sort of, you know, some stats in there for this group here. Now, let's hear about what kinds of things you're looking for in your next role.

Heidi Kirby  
Yeah, so um, you know, I've mentioned a little bit about the people leadership, kind of the building, building a function. But I've mostly been applying to kind of the director level roles manager level roles manager of l&d, even like customer education manager, things like that.

Luis Malbas  
Nice, very nice. And how's it been so far? Can you describe your experience?

Heidi Kirby  
So, um, it's been slow. Let's be real, it has been slow. I think that, I don't know if it's time of year, or what, but you know, October was the end of the fiscal year for a lot of companies. I'm actually seeing a little bit of movement pick up. Now that it's November, I'm seeing things go a little bit faster. But, I mean, I have gotten like rejection letters, like, I've been technically looking. I've been casually looking since like, the end of August, but I really haven't focused my search until about six weeks ago. And I've gotten I got a rejection email the other day, and I didn't even remember applying to the job. It was so long ago. Yeah. So like, just the communication. There have been an I am, you know, a crazy, crazy advocate of if you make it to the hiring manager interview, and you get ghosted, you dodged a bullet, because I think that if you speak to the hiring manager, and they don't give you some kind of communication, that you're not moving on in the process, that that is completely unprofessional, right? phone screen, I feel like you should probably hear something back. But I've had a handful of phone screens that are just sitting here on this post it note on my computer that I just haven't heard back from in weeks. Wow. Nothing, nothing either way. So I'm like, am I still in consideration for any of these? Or, and then, you know, I think that, by and large, my experience with recruiters has been lovely. But lately, I am just getting such a sense of burnout from recruiters, I can't tell you how many that I have spoken to, that just seemed like from the very beginning of the call that they would rather be anywhere else than on the call with me. And it's really, really hard to have a positive conversation, have a productive conversation. And just really, you know, prove yourself when the person seems like they don't want to really talk to you so and I know that recruiters are probably super busy right now and I might be the 20th person they've talked to you that day. You know and so I tried to really be sympathetic to that but it is slow going

Luis Malbas  
right? Wow it I mean I'm looking in the chat Aaron Lesley Christine salmon. You know, Susanna saying the great resignation is an actual thing and it really is I mean, that information is out there and like like Danny saying lots of dysfunction and a happy unhappiness out there. So that's been tough. So how do you deal with the ghosting or the rejections? Is there anything that you found that just kind of helped you manage that stuff?

Heidi Kirby  
Yeah, so um, I just love I just want to say I love these Jackie and Aaron's they just got rejected for jobs they replied to in the summer that is that's great. But as far as dealing with rejections and ghosting, right? When I, I think it was, it was the morning of my last day, on my previous role that I recorded my podcast episode with my friend Sabina, who wrote the book, agile unemployment. And we it was really good closure, because we just kind of talked about, like, how do you manage being unemployed. And the important thing is to not look for a job for 40 hours a week, because that's, if you're doing kind of a targeted job search, there's no way you can possibly do that. Like if you're applying to like a core, four or five jobs that speak to you a week, you can't spend 40 hours on that, right? And so that's kind of, you know, so what do you do when all that rejections and ghosting comes along? And my approach has been to take time for me take time for self care, but also help other people. And so I put out a post some at some point last week, I can't remember which day that says like, Hey, does anybody want help? You know, is there anything I can help you with? While I have all this free time, because that's a really, that's what I like to do. When I'm in my head too much is like, just help other people, it helps me feel better. And I've just had like, back to back conversations with people, the past couple of days, as a result of that. Just talking to people from all different walks of life, some people are looking for a job, some people already have one and just was like, Hey, I've seen you on LinkedIn, let's chat. And it's just been really great. And it has taken my mind off of those rejection emails, and that ghosting so much that I'm not just sitting around sitting, waiting for my phone to go off right.

Luis Malbas  
Now, that's helpful. And so that's something you probably recommend to other people, too, that are kind of going through this situation. Yeah, no, that's, that's fantastic. Now, I've got a bunch of questions from people. Is it okay, if I just gonna go through some of the Yeah. Okay. Let's see. Get to. Okay, let's start with this one. Lauren. Lauren Flores is asking, How do you remove the higher education mindset and jargon from your application materials and interview responses, responses, if that's the only industry that you've been in.

Heidi Kirby  
Um, it's kind of like learning a new language where you kind of have to use like immersion as the best way to learn it. So I would say, you know, start listening to the podcast, or listening to the conversations that people are having in the corporate world, if that's what you're going for, and then start really looking at all the different job postings, because that'll kind of tell you what the jargon is, you'll start to recognize, okay, well, I've done that, but we call it this, you know, and you'll, you'll start to kind of learn that, and then also invite people to informational interviews, who are working in the kinds of roles that you want, so that you can learn some of that jargon so that you can adopt some of it.

Luis Malbas  
No, that's great advice. I totally agree. Because there is, I mean, I think from more on the corporate side of things, there's a ton of content like conversations like ours, you know, podcasts like yours, where you can actually pick up on, you know, more of that corporate training mindset. And hopefully, that'll kind of offset the higher education stuff that might already be embedded in you. So that is a great piece of advice. Thanks, Heidi. Let's see, Leslie is asking, there's so many positions that require you to do take homework, or presentations, I have been in the job search for many months, and spent hours on many different assignments, all for jobs I really wanted. How do you balance putting your best foot forward on these tasks while also protecting your energy? Especially when companies don't give you a time limit on how much time you should spend on a presentation or assignment? That's a good one. I've seen people asking as this type of question in the past. So what do you think it? Um,

Heidi Kirby  
it's very interesting, because it wasn't, it wasn't nearly as predominant when I first joined the fields. In fact, like having a portfolio wasn't a required, I would, I would argue that it's a requirement. At this point. If you want to truly be competitive in instructional design, you need to have a portfolio. But then it makes me irritated that so many positions, if you're basically required to have a portfolio, then also expect you to spend a ton of time on a separate assignment. When they can see your work. They can ask you about your work. They can ask you about how you produce your work based on your portfolio. When I was hiring, what One of the things that I did, I didn't want someone to spend time on those types of presentations. So I specifically required a portfolio so that I could look at that and ask questions. Um, you know, I just think that, at some point, you're going to have to pick and choose, right, you're going to have to choose which opportunities, if it's, you know, if they're all jobs that you really want, you're going to have to just narrow it down and pick and choose from those jobs, which your which you're working, working to move forward for, but also know when they're asking for too much. And that's hard, because it's different for every person, but no one they're asking for too much. If someone's asking you to put together a whole course, a whole product a whole it to the point where it feels uncomfortable. You know, I think that that becomes an issue, my biggest issue as a hiring manager with with the assignment piece, and I've seen it done really smartly. But I've also seen it done where it's like create a module on X is that you are basically setting yourself up for a miscommunication. Because when that person starts a job, like if they do a good job on on the assignment that you give them, they are not let me back up. When they work on the assignment, they are not working on it under the same conditions that they will be when they join your team, they're not going to have 12 hours or some ridiculously short period of time to work on an assignment. And you're not going to see their best work because of that time constraint. So it's kind of it's almost like a misrepresentation. What I've seen work a lot better is like an assignment that's like, tell us how you would approach x problem, or tell us how you would do this thing or talk through your design process. If we said we were going to give you this assignment, like there are ways that you can get to their skill set that don't require, like here make this finished product. Right.

Luis Malbas  
Right right now and I love the feedback. We're getting in the chat Christiana, who is fantastic senior director. She's saying that only when the candidate is a super finalist is that they might ask for any kind of project. Yeah. Yeah, the chat is fantastic. Was Was stuff I know. I've had guests in the past that, um, you know, instructional design, sort of almost like contractors and and professional freelancers that say no, if they're asking for me to do a project, now just look at my portfolio. Otherwise, I don't even want the job, you know, my portfolio speaks for itself. So I've seen it go a variety of directions there. Let's get through a few more of these questions here. Here's another one for Lauren, how would you how would you manage relationships with folks at your current job? If you're considering searching and applying for new opportunities? When is the right time to share with your supervisor, colleagues, mentors, etc? Um,

Heidi Kirby  
that's a really good question. Because I chose to resign before I had something lined up because I wanted to put my job search out in the public and I couldn't do that while I was still working. Unfortunately, your current job, at least, where I work in Ohio, my current job is a Ohio's and at at will Is that what it's called, where they can fire me without cause at any point. So if they find out that I am looking for a job that can literally let me go on the spot without reason or without cause. So it is not safe in Ohio to really, you know, say that you're looking right. Um, as a hiring manager, I like to always, I like to always assume that my team members are always looking or always keeping their options open, because I always keep my options open. And my goal as a leader is if they want my job one day, to prep them for that so that they don't have to leave so that they can eventually get my job and I can move up. But yeah, that's a really tough question, because I don't think there is a right time when you're leaving. That's the right time to share that you're looking for a new role.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, yeah. It's probably just best to play it safe. Right? Yeah. All right. Good one. Let's see. I've got more questions here. A couple more. Okay. So Oh, Susan is just curious. Isn't mantises curious about if you're searching primarily for remote jobs or on site in your area or both?

Heidi Kirby  
I think Kim from Cinna craft As on this call, and so she knows that there aren't a ton of lnd jobs in the Cleveland area. Also, I've worked at home now for good, almost two years, and I am not looking to go back on site. So I am looking for remote jobs where it's like, you know, up to 20% travel, like, maybe come visit the team a few times a year, that kind of thing.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, yeah. And I it feels like that's probably moving more towards typical, you know, um, I don't know, you know, for sure, but I feel like that's, that's the case. Okay, a couple more questions that say I've got one from Christine here about adding that it looks like postings, a lot of posting she's seeing are requiring HTML, and she wanted to know how to learn the skill quickly to apply to her resume, I can take a stab at that, too, because I definitely use a lot of HTML on a daily basis.

Heidi Kirby  
I learned HTML from having a MySpace back in the day. That was predominantly where I learned, but there are some apps that are out there that are really good. For just like HTML basics, I can't think of the names of any off the top of my head, but I downloaded. You know, just type in learn HTML in your app store. And there's like little apps where it's like, you know, gamified, and daily little challenges and things like that. Um, but also, I don't really consider jobs that require things like that. Because to me, HTML coding, even though I've done it, I'm coding things like that. Like I recently had an interview, where they wanted me to, like build chat bots. And I was like, these are not, these are not learning functions to me, right? If there's a if there's a reason to know, HTML, sure. But also realize that most of your applicants are not going to know HTML if they're instructional designers.

Luis Malbas  
Right, right. I found like, I know that there. I've even found some value as far as learning some programming skills for like kids stuff like kids. Games. Oh, yeah. You know, they're I mean, you know, they say they're for kids. But I've actually sat down and looked at some of them. I'm like, Oh, this is kind of fun. And I'll be like, Whoa, an hour has gone by. But what have I learned? Look at this. I know it isn't JavaScript now. But yeah, take a look at kids stuff, too. This is pretty funny. This whole MySpace and HTML thing you guys must have been like super nerds like actually using HTML and in MySpace, because I don't remember ever doing that. But

Heidi Kirby  
yeah, to like, put pictures in your MySpace or to play music when someone visited your page?

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, no, I did do that. I remember I used to have the X the X Files. Theme Song launch into my MySpace. Okay, so let's wrap it up here. We've got one last question. What opportunities have you found in your free time?

Heidi Kirby  
Yeah, so um, that's a great question. Because one of the first things I did was I met with one of my old bosses, who was actually a really good friend of mine, but we haven't met since pre COVID. And she was like, You need to establish your LLC for any side work that you pick up. In the meantime, I'm because she knows how I am. And she knows I can't sit still for very long so I actually created an LLC. So I have like, technically my own consulting business, that I can start things on the side but I've also planned a general outline for an instructional design book that I will be writing at some point when I'm done with my dissertation because I am not going to allow myself to procrastinate from my dissertation in the meantime, I'm and then I've also been contacted by a company that I'm working with now on some like instructional design course material. I've been working on new I've been talking to people for new podcast episodes for next year. I'm just working on like, all sorts of different crazy things. And consulting opportunities talking to just different people. And and yeah, so there's been a lot of things I also found this has nothing to do is work at all, but I don't want to make it sound like all I do is work all day. I also found that for the Nintendo Switch, and I didn't know this. There is a Zelda Link's Awakening game that's been like redone from the original Gameboy and it's a game that I had that came with my original Gameboy back in the day when it was like the large gray Gameboy. And so I've been playing through well first I played through Luigis Mansion because my Son begged me to buy it. But he's five. And it's a little advanced for him. So I played through it, and he just watch. But now I'm playing through the Zelda game again. And so it's very cool to like play through a game I played through when I was eight years old. And now to have him there and watching. So yeah, that's what I've been doing in my free time.

Luis Malbas  
So, yeah, it sounds like make sure that you're at least finding some fun time for Yes, absolutely. Yeah, no, I totally agree. Because I know like, you know, there is a period in my life where I was going through a few jobs here and there, and it's like, oh, really can bog you down and, and finding some time for yourself is is super important, you know, just to, to remember what it's like to not be doing a job search. Yeah, this is great. And I also want to mention, if there's any of you out there that has free time and you know, you to LDC at all can be a tool for you to use to find a job or talk to people or meet people or do anything like that. Let me know, just reach out to me. I mean, you know, it's just pretty much me like doing stuff. So, just tell me if there's a person that you want to have interviewed on T LDC, if you want to interview them onto T LDC. If you want to, you know, take over stuff like this, let me know, because I am happy to help with anything like that. And I could absolutely, like use the help. So keep that in mind, everyone. All right. Well, Heidi, thanks so much for sharing this great conversation. Everyone connect with Heidi, if you aren't already. Yes, please do. I don't think this conversation is over. Lots of lots of folks, I'm sure would love to continue talking about this. So yeah, just let me know if you guys also TLB chat.us, our Slack group. Let me put that in the, in the in the chat there for you guys. If you want to join up there. We have conversations there on a regular basis about all kinds of stuff Christine's in there on a regular basis. So Alright, everyone, thanks a lot. We'll don't forget next week, we have our ideal 21 conference, our inclusion, diversity, equity, accessibility for Learning Conference, which is great. We've got a couple 100 People already signed up for it, and it's going to be fun, it's free. So make sure you sign up for that one. Let me put the URL for that ID for learning.com Sign up. It's free. It's going to be great, because the speakers are fantastic. I've been having the best time putting this one together. So um, yeah, that's it. We'll see everybody later. Thanks again, Heidi. Thanks. Okay, bye

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