Intersections in Learning with Danielle Kayal

Lisa Crockett  
Thanks for listening to the intersections and learning and development cast, a series from the training learning and development community. My name is Lisa Crockett. And this cast focuses on forging relationships that foster effective learning, no matter where you start, whether you design, develop, deliver, support or consult, and her all of the above, we hope to provide you with new ideas, inspiration and connections across the l&d community.

Back to intersections and learning. I am Lisa Crockett, and my co host Monique St. Paul is having a lovely time up in the air on her way back from the learning guild conference in Orlando. Lucky Monique. So because I will try to keep up with questions and stuff in the chat. But we all know and I'm flying solo it can get a little dicey. So hopefully that won't scare our guests. So our guests actually today is Daniel Cale, and she is the founder and principal of work shift, workshops. work shift is a boutique consulting and coaching firm specializing in HR and people practices. So Danielle has been in HR for over 15 years. And she started her career in education before that, she spent 10 years in OD and talent development. And we really wanted to talk to her today because the intersection of design thinking and the many like the intersections with learning, the subject matter experts, the leaders that she's working with, we really wanted to hear about that within her practice. So I'm going to stop tripping over my tongue, pass the mic to Danielle, and ask her to introduce herself before we dive in with some questions.

Danielle Kayal  
Thank you. Yeah, so I'm trying to think what else to mention. So I have been a career changer a few times, although my career changers my career changes have been not necessarily 180s. But more pivots. So I pivoted from before even education, I was in the business fields, as well as public health for a very short time and then pivoted to education. And then from education pivoted to organizational development and learning and then nice. Yeah, so I see life as really a series of definitely lattice and a series of opportunities. And it's really about just trying to figure out and follow interests and passions and see what sticks.

Lisa Crockett  
Yeah, yeah, I really liked that because it is what sticks. I've done a lot of pivoting too. And I think it's really interesting when you said education to organizational development. Yeah, I hear a lot of teachers going from education into learning right now. But can you like when you thought about OD, you know, where did you come at it yet? Like how did you come at at organizational development is the place you wanted to make the bridge and, and was that you expected?

Danielle Kayal  
I had a divine intervention, I think the time when I was figuring out what to do next. I literally put my name and a talent pool through or through a temp agency. Oh Ma, and they had matched my skills with a position open position and organizational development. So I never even heard of the word. Or realize like what could be I mean, I just knew that I had transferable skills, and instructional design and transferable skills working with people. And so I was purely, just a really happy coincidence that that was like my first foray. So I didn't you know, I didn't ask for it. But I certainly there's so many different, again, transferable skills and ways. The two, two things intersect. I mean, I always like to use the that I taught high school, and I feel like well, you know, everybody in high school just grows up, and it actually works for your organization. So that even shoes are the challenges, they're, they're less, they're less of like the behavioral that maybe the annoying behavioral things that you had dealt with, but at the end of the day, the people you know, the people have just kind of evolved into, into adults. And so, you know, it's really just, it's all about how do you understand people? How do you understand what their motivations are, and what their passions are, as well as understanding what the larger business context is, and was and so that was a big, that was definitely the biggest leap and making the transition. Because it was like, Okay, I you know, I had worked in business briefly. So I knew the idea of like, okay, working behind a computer, email, emails, totally, you know, good stock stuff, but really to understand all the different business units and what they brought to the table and what their issues were and how they all connected to them. Corporate Strategy, that that was definitely very new to me. And I think I was also fortunate that I am a visual thinker. So if somebody were to see, you know, show me a map of here's the org chart, the whole company, or here's like what we're trying to do visually, it was easier for me to grasp. So that was just kind of my own way that like, and that's why I think od stuck, stuck with me.

Lisa Crockett  
It's like, almost like a spider, like, as you're saying it, like I'm seeing like a spider web coming right out of it. And it does, because it's, it's, it's almost like if it's done correctly, it's the landing place for that business information to tie those other pieces that are often siloed. Together. If it's, again, if it's being done, right. And that's the biggest challenge, and I don't rate is such a judgmental word. But if it's being done effectively, and that depends on the organization. You know, like you said, the strategy, the culture, how it all comes together. So I don't know if everyone knows the nature of organizational development work, but I think you did a really good job explaining it. When you talk about working with other departments, like what, where specifically do you touch the most often from an OD perspective,

Danielle Kayal  
from a department standpoint, it really depends on the organization. So I would say that, for you know, from my previous experience, you know, I definitely have worked, probably the majority of my work overall has been with with HR teams, and working with them on things like, you know, we want to roll out a new HR hrs system, and but we don't know how to do that, or like, you know, how do we make sure that when we roll it out, then everyone's going to understand how to use it, and what it can do and not be overwhelmed. And, you know, I've done some work with a lot of work with onboarding, you know, new hire orientation. And then looking at, you know, where things are from a, in smaller teams of organs? You know, are the teams functioning? Right? And are they you know, is everybody thriving on the team? Is everybody aware of their roles and responsibilities?

Lisa Crockett  
And that's fascinating work. But that's got to be really, do you often do that with different teams inside the same organization? Or does it sweep through like a almost like a, like, programmatically? Um,

Danielle Kayal  
a lot of times it can it really, again, I think depends on the client, because the client will see the see the result and be like, alright, we need this to ripple through or we need this to go through the organization. But sometimes it doesn't, I feel like a big part of this work is really about assessing client readiness more than anything. And, you know, are they ready to pause and see, like, actually acknowledged the, you know, the different issues there and they acknowledge phase doesn't, that's where it's just right at the tip of the iceberg? It's about like, okay, are they willing? Or do they know how to help themselves out of it? So I'd say a lot of the work I do, even though it's, you know, OD is positioning in HR, it's one of those specialty functions that really expands doesn't matter how much you know about HR, it's really about understanding and facilitating, yes, groups to make decisions and groups to solve problems.

Lisa Crockett  
I love that you use the word facilitating, because I think it's an often there's often a misunderstanding in the l&d world of, you know, because we just we talk about it as training we historically have called people trainers. But the best trainers are facilitators, it's they're facilitating the information, they are learning the information in order to be able to convey the information at some level, but really listening to the people in the room and saying, what are the questions being asked? What are the questions?

Danielle Kayal  
Being asked? Yeah.

Lisa Crockett  
Facilitating and and that's not a that's a that's a challenging skill. And I think that each like you said, the HR knowledge, you don't need it. Is it helpful? It can be you're going to pick it up over time anyway. Because if that's where you're sitting, you're just going to, so certainly, it's helpful to understand those things. But it's more helpful to understand people. I love what you said earlier about being a high school teacher, and moving it was like you're moving from one organization to another, we do that our whole lives. It doesn't matter what the organization is, it could be a ski team, you know, doesn't matter, but it's always a group and once you get a group of people together, the bigger the group, the more complex and it's fun. It's like a big puzzle, and it's

Danielle Kayal  
oh my gosh, totally. You're stealing my fender for one of my guilty pleasures.

Lisa Crockett  
Okay, All right, we're gonna get there because Oh, wow, you know, I do it makes me wonder. And I'm gonna ask you later what you think hopefully I'll remember the question, but I'm gonna keep going. Yeah, no problem. So what is your best advice to anyone who wants to get into a career in od HR and maybe specifically having come from education? What do you wish someone had told you in the beginning?

Danielle Kayal  
Um, I would say probably the biggest advice would be certainly, like, talk to talk to people in the field, before you make the move, and try to you know, try to get some firsthand knowledge and perspective. Okay, what, you know, what are the books that I need to read? What are the what is this all about? Like, just to give you an overview, I one of the books that really helped me was the Fifth Discipline, which is by Peter Sangay. And it's all about the idea of systems thinking,

Lisa Crockett  
Okay, I'm putting this in the chat. Not the link is very much

Danielle Kayal  
understanding systems and understanding, okay, how like, let's say, if you're doing a training, how does the training not just affect the learners in your classroom? But why does it have an effect on other other people in the US in this system? And, you know, again, everything in an organization, or, you know, should go back to its mission and its strategy? So I think it's just really learning to think about things holistically, and on a bigger on a bigger scale. Together. Yeah, talking to people is really helpful. And really, it depends on, you know, individual readiness. I mean, there's plenty of there's plenty of master's programs and plenty of, you know, some people start od by going into change management first. It really depends on what's what's calling you. And what's, you know, where are you in terms of pursuing an informal path or informal path?

Lisa Crockett  
Yeah, it makes sense. I came at it from project management and HR. And those two things kind of fell together in a way where I was like, Oh, okay. It wasn't called OD. At the time, it was called organizational effectiveness, I am that old. But still. And it's probably the most fun I've had at work. I love doing instructional design work. And I love the the changes in it. But od work is amazing. Because you really, you dig deep into how people behave, and how people respond. And you learn so much about yourself through that lens, because you have to, you have to know your triggers, and all of those things in order to help them navigate it. And it's just a I don't know how to say how rewarding it can be.

Danielle Kayal  
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. And also glad you brought it up at Brown around the triggers. Because this is where I've seen a topic that is used a lot now is talking about unconscious bias, you know, let's do unconscious bias training, unconscious bias training. And if I think if somebody in this field doesn't really understand what unconscious bias they have, and where they're, you know, where their points are, you know, it's, it could be, it's really hard to learn.

Lisa Crockett  
When you don't know or, you know, I look back at all of the, I've been in a lot of leadership development programs over the years, I have developed them, I've been party to them all of these different things. And when I think back to some of the exercises and things that went on over the last more than a decade of, of being involved in these things, they're they scare me a little bit, they scare me a lot. And when I think about the fact that what I didn't know, way back, and what I've learned over time about the harm that can be done by some of these things that are meant to, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to get deep and judgy about it. But being careful about what you do in a room, where you have all different individuals from all different cultures, like you're saying, you don't know, where you might hit a hot button, something as simple as, um, I think I remember seeing this on LinkedIn, someone saying that someone was using a lot of Harry Potter references in, you know, as a sort of aside in a training like, you know, it's like magic, you know, and they were using, like, spells and things like that. And this person was like, it made them extremely uncomfortable in their religion, this is not something that this is not something to be taken lightly. This is not something that you know, it's like, wow, you know, I know that person was not thinking about that. And I, you know, they thought it was cute and lightweight to explain something that everybody thinks is magic that wasn't magic, whatever it was, but being so careful. And that's a light, light compared to some of the things I've seen gotten in a classroom with, you know, two or three dozen people really. And some people taking things very seriously and sharing things probably would have been best to share. It's a hard it's a hard thing. Absolutely. So, bringing us sort of back to clients and doing In the work when you bring in a new client, how do you scope your work? I know that that's a challenge for a lot of folks that, that listen to the cast.

Danielle Kayal  
Yeah, I would say, it usually comes about because of a symptom. So if something isn't working, there's pain, there's, you know, we have to do something better. So it always starts with the symptoms. And then I think from there, it's realizing, okay, well, what is the impact that this problem has right now? Is it like, you know, I have to fix it tomorrow, or the or the organization is going to combust? Or is it something that like, you know, we need to get done, but we're, we're okay. And then it's looking at who else is involved? So how, you know, how, how pervasive is it? Is it like, I have a, you know, if I have an organization of five people, is very different than I have an organization of 500 people. Yes. And then looking at, the biggest thing is data. And this is, it's really hard to say like, Okay, what data do you have? And what data do you still need? Because that can influence the scope of the project? Because I've mean, I always like to start with, you know, how do you know it's true? Or how to, you know, what, what evidence do you have about this? And if they don't really have evidence, then, you know, my approach is really to either interview people or send some sort of survey around or some way to kind of gauge how deep it is. And then I think from there, from there, it's okay, here's, here's her, you know, here's what I think. And here's what I propose, I also have learned that it's maybe more my personality than then like, the science of OD is like, offer people options. Oh, yeah. You know, making making sure that whatever your next step is, or your solution is still agile and still flexible, because clients may not be right. So I think the more that you're prepared with, Okay, well, if they don't want this, they don't want to do interviews with everybody. That do we have to pivot to? You know, is this the road? does the buck stop there? Or can you do? What's another way to do that? You know, do you do a group interview? Do you do a group? Something to collect that that information?

Lisa Crockett  
Oh, for sure. I mean, that's, I know, the ideas out there run into this and their needs analysis, and their learner analysis in there. And wanting to merge, you know, personally wanting to merge the learning experience design, into instructional design. So more of that, what's the user experience? Wanting to talk to that end, end user and learner? That can be a big challenge. And I know, in in od programs, it's the same way. And it's not, sometimes it's a gating issue or a cultural issue. But other times it's a, these people are on the road, they're on their own floor, they're not available, this is a fast paced environment, they're not trying to be difficult or challenging. It's just, you know, if I Can I tag along for a day sometimes a great, yeah, try to try to do but some organizations? Well, if your internal, I would imagine that's a lot easier as a consultant, personally, it's not something that most people want to do. Especially potential environment or, or a medical environment.

Danielle Kayal  
Yeah, exactly. And that's what I found, even with, you know, starting to incorporate design thinking, and design thinking principles, because it does really start with, you know, the empathy of okay, what is, you know, what is the user experiencing? And what it could be, but I think that the biggest benefit is, how do you get the entire system in the room? As much as possible? How do you get everybody's voice heard, and really engage in a process that brings forth ideas and surfaces issues, and then actually connects the dots together, instead of me saying, Okay, it's this, this this. But you know, through that, through that type of experience, you can really help the team look at themselves and get a lot of great information in a short period of time.

Lisa Crockett  
Oh, I just love that. You said that. It's the hardest thing to get done. And, and I can imagine folks listening, you know, saying, Well, that sounds great. But there's always that, that but that but but without the buy in without all those voices, you can have the right answer. We used to say that on one of the teams I was on, we would be like, gosh, it's just not that hard. But here's the thing, like the answer might not answer shouldn't be hard. The answers probably relatively simple. But if everyone doesn't come to it, it doesn't matter. You know, you You're not a doctor, we're not doctors, we're not writing prescriptions that are absolutely going to cure this issue. Folks need to get there and be bought in before you get started. Otherwise, you're just throwing your money out there. But hard, hard thing to sell. You know, it's when it's it's time.

Unknown Speaker  
Yeah, and it's,

Lisa Crockett  
you know, but we can do it. We can do

Danielle Kayal  
it. Yeah, yeah. And I find that a lot of times You know, I'll be someone who will go in with an issue that appears to be learning and will go, Okay, we'll start learning, you know, I'll bring up other, you know, other things that are related to learning that should be, you know, part of the system. But, you know, ultimately, sometimes having that first learning experience or learning initiative, go well, or go, go one way, builds up the trust and credibility needed to do the deeper the deeper systems.

Lisa Crockett  
Really, I mean, like, it's, I don't think you can ever, let's say, sell something like coaching. And I don't mean, sell, but I mean, like, get people to understand the importance of maybe coaching because you can develop a leadership development program, and it might solve 50% of your problem 60 Even I mean, you know, but there are certain folks that it's, it are going to have more challenges with it for all different reasons, not because they're lazy, or they're mean, or they're bad people. It's just, they need something different. And I'm not using learning styles, because I don't believe in learning styles personally. But it's the idea of some people need more or different reinforcement, because they bring different things to the table. They've come from a different place. Maybe they're, they're from a different country, maybe they've grown up in a different culture, maybe they've just had a different experience coming, you know, coming into it than other people there. And it's not one size fits all, it can be one size fits many.

Danielle Kayal  
Yes. Yeah. Absolutely.

Lisa Crockett  
It's hard work. And it's funny because this is where the the intersection for me of OD working with the people who are creating, or bringing to fruition the ideas that you're designing, on learning come in and being hand in hand with the OD team, or the folks that are doing the analysis you're talking about if it's not only but maybe it's an HR person, I think has been the thing that for me has made it easier to develop what I need to develop. Absolutely, no,

Danielle Kayal  
yeah, yeah. Because you're really you're building you're limiting the confusion, the telephone game. You're looking at problem together, you're you're not able, I love this concept of like, you know, riffing off, you know, someone else of just being able to have a thought partner, and oh, god, yes. And come up with different ideas, because it's easy to be satisfactorily efficient. Yeah, it's not. I mean, there's just like these unconscious blinders that just kind of play you don't know. You're like, Oh, why did they think of that, but that other person that had the different perspective, is gonna give you so much more insight of like, Could this you know, could this work?

Lisa Crockett  
Exactly? Or does it make sense? Is it intuitive, because everything we create at the end of the day, should be intuitive. And if it's not, if it's not simple, I always ask the person that I know is going to blow it up. Yeah, I have Monique review my presentations, and she always blows them up. And I'm like, but that's what it's the things that you need to know that someone who doesn't isn't in the space that you're in isn't doesn't know about what you're talking about is going to say? Well, I don't understand why that was there. And that didn't make sense. Or, and you realize this is out of order. I didn't explain this because you have this tacit knowledge. And that's just, that's the simple stuff. Yeah, about the bias. And the things that you just do, you know, you're just not representing people who who do animation software rarely have overweight characters. You notice, what is that about? Like, people are all sorts of different sizes. And you know, and, and that's something that people don't talk about inside organizations. And that's an easy one compared to the stuff. I'm not talking about it. Yeah.

Danielle Kayal  
Cool. Can I ask you a question about the journey is about blowing up? Because I think that's what's your connotation of blowing up? Is it a good thing? Or is it sounded like it was a bad thing?

Lisa Crockett  
Um, no, I see blowing it blowing up as meaning it and that again, probably shows my age as a bad thing. Okay. Yeah.

Danielle Kayal  
I think it's all good. Yeah, not to like, yeah, so you might see it as a as a bad thing. But I think another big lesson I've learned and when I've done Id work, and OD work is that that's like, that's a beautiful moment. Like, that's an AHA learning moment. And, yeah, and it also could be an ego, ego defining moment, or like, Alright, I'm gonna go right down there. Yeah, but it's also acknowledging, though, that this type of work, it can be deeply personal, but you know, it's also again, like checking where you are. And, and what can you learn from the situation? You might have learned, okay, I'm talking to a different audience. They picked up on these sorts of things. Okay, that might have been my blind spot. And so I guess, you know, I think that's we talked about, like blowing up and, or, you know, things happen catastrophically and, you know, ending ending momentum or scrapping the project and, but I think one thing that's kept me doing this work is is trying to check my ego as much as possible and realize like, okay, okay, that's criticism got it. Okay, that hurts. But like,

Lisa Crockett  
how do you handle that in the client situation when and I think that's where my, that's where my bias and in this area, frankly, is, how do you handle it when the when the client can't handle it, whatever that thing was that happened, and they're kind of going down that road of, you know, whatever the whatever was done, whatever, you know, that person's gone. This is that instead of how do we constructively see if this is salvageable?

Danielle Kayal  
Yeah, I would say first of all, is always about is the client ready to receive the information and kind of prepping them like, Okay, we're going to collect this information about this and that we're going to show you, we're going to show you what we've done, or what we've what we've designed so far. And then And then really kind of talk through what's the best way to go through that, like, do they need time to think about it? Okay, well, let's, let's, let's come back in a week, or what sort of let's actually look at, you know, just a small piece of the pie. versus, you know, versus the whole thing. One thing I've learned is that try not in this is, you know, goes both ways, like some people want the data beforehand, like all of it, so they can kind of digest it before you review with them in person. Yes. And some people prefer it. I personally like to do it together. Because this way you can get at the resistance, you can say, oh my gosh, they that was was that an aha moment? Or was that an oh, shit moment? And kind of gauge them? In through that? Yes. So I mean, I'd say like it really, you know that the resistance really just depends on the client.

Lisa Crockett  
Maybe you hadn't gotten you wouldn't, in the beginning, go as deep with a client where you felt the resistance upfront. Yeah, yeah. Right. You know, it's that okay, well, we'll put out a survey. Yeah. And let's see what happens from that and go from there. Oh, my gosh, we're only a half hour Oh, my goodness, I only know the questions. I'm like, wait, we got it. We've got to get to some of these. Let's see what's a really good one. If you had any skill, right now to do your current job that you don't have, what would it be? And why?

Danielle Kayal  
I would say I would definitely say it would go to statistical analysis, and data analysis. I'm, you know, I think I'm comfortable with collecting data. I'm comfortable looking at themes, but for really looking at, you know, comparative ratios and doing a lot of the work that I know, is done in marketing or and done and other finance and other other units. That that would, that's something that I'd like to learn.

Lisa Crockett  
What are the KPIs of OD? Hey, no, that would not be read that book. I would read that totally. And how do you Well, what are the KPIs? And how do you analyze them? I would read that book. Yeah. Let's segue into some of the more fun questions as we're closing up. Do you have a favorite mantra or quote that you live by?

Danielle Kayal  
Yeah, I would say yeah, one that I keep coming back to, is to be the change that you want to see. I can't remember who said that. Exactly. But definitely not me. But it's worked for me today. I think this is all about, like, you know, it's easy to come from a place of like, oh, you know, of blame. It's the other person's fault. I'm the victim. All of this. Yeah. And so when I think about that statement, it's about like, you know, just get on the you know, be take take responsibility. And be you know, kind of be and be in charge and be and be a leader by doing something that you want to see other people do

Lisa Crockett  
like that. I like that and I think we can all we can all do that. Yeah, we can all try to do that. Okay, I think we're gonna jump into Are you ready for the speed round? I know you've heard tell about our speed round. We'll try to cavities me. What was the last song you listen to Daniel?

Danielle Kayal  
So last song was a song by John Batista. He was the winner of the I think this year's Grammy Record of the Year and it's, it's all right.

Lisa Crockett  
So Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think yeah. Cool. What about the last book that you read?

Danielle Kayal  
I have a great habit of buying books but not reading them from start to finish. So the last book chapters I read came We called changing on the job developing leaders for a complex world.

Unknown Speaker  
While only the chapters,

Danielle Kayal  
well, I mean, the chapters, it depends on how much if I, you know, again, this is like my, my own internal philosophy of keep going with something as much as it like, fulfills you or like, is interesting.

Lisa Crockett  
What's the ROI on this? That's where I'm gonna stop. Yeah.

Danielle Kayal  
So I mean, I start from the beginning, although, you know, sometimes I will start a book from the end, depending on what kind of book it is. But I do start from the beginning. And then I say, Okay, does this chapter want me to go to the next chapter does this, you know, and what am I learned, and also, it's the absorption factor, there's so much content now that like, I'd rather just like, have like, it's like a cup of tea, you know, I just want to have a cup of tea and sip on this chapter. And then when I want another cup or one other sipo go for a go back and read the other chapter.

Lisa Crockett  
I'm gonna let you inspire me, I'm gonna, I'm gonna beg you to inspire man. I'm gonna keep telling myself that because I have this thing where I pick up a book. And if I don't finish it, I feel bad about myself. Even if it's not, I can't read it, you know. But I'm going to I'm going to try to break away from that, because I also think you're right, and you can get something from anything. You can learn something. That doesn't mean you have to take the whole thing unnecessarily.

Danielle Kayal  
Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa Crockett  
And yeah, on that note, I'll just move on to the next question. What's, what would you say is your guilty pleasure?

Danielle Kayal  
I definitely do jigsaw puzzles. So I know that's a little little Oh, yeah. Do that.

Unknown Speaker  
I love them. Totally.

Danielle Kayal  
Whatever. I'm not going to even talk about Yeah, the age they are. The ID puzzle for me. It's tactile, it like gets at my visual systems thinking and it kind of just takes me out of my head. It's feeling useful, like, Oh, yeah.

Lisa Crockett  
I mean, something I'm gonna have something at the end. Have you ever tried an online crossword? Or in that crossword? I'm sorry, an online jigsaw? I have fascinating. They are, they're totally fascinating. I actually put one on my website the other day one of and I'll actually send you a link to it, because it's a lot of fun. It's a huge sunflower. But I was like, Oh, I really want to do have something here that's interactive and fun. And I love playing in it. I really do. It's just, it's it. It's a good break, when you're having a challenge in a day, and you just take 10 minutes, and you solve something. Yeah. You know, it's like, it's not Yeah, I love it. I love it. He

Danielle Kayal  
says different, you know, different holes, and you're like, Okay, what needs to be solved, and it doesn't really matter where you start, which is the best.

Lisa Crockett  
Totally, I wonder if this is a common and I'd love to like, I think I need to put like a survey out there for to OD and, and also instructional design, folks. I'm so curious if this is like a thing for us, you know, because so much of the work we do is is really putting the disparate pieces together, and trying to figure out how they fit and what's not quite fitting, and I think it makes so much sense. Okay, my my favorite question, everybody that listens to the cast knows this one is my favorite. Could your partner or your best friend accurately describe what you do for a living?

Danielle Kayal  
Absolutely not.

Lisa Crockett  
Okay, so now I think we're at this is broad, this is broadcast 12. And only two people so far, I believe maybe three, I could be off. I'm going to check back on that before the next cast. Yeah. Everybody says the same thing. My husband could not tell you. I remember one day you said something with coaching.

Unknown Speaker  
I laughed so hard. I was like, Okay, that's great. And here's my business card.

Danielle Kayal  
Yeah, I find I don't like to talk about work, when I'm not working. So, so enough. I just don't talk about it. And so they have no idea what I'm trying

Lisa Crockett  
to lay out, you know? Yeah. Oh, thank you so much for being with us today. Danielle. I know, Monique, missed you. But I'm feel so treated that I was able to talk to you today. And I'd love to get some time offline to talk about puzzles. And likewise. So we'll we'll do some, we'll just have offline Oh, and let me I've been such a bad host but a bad chat person that I did not put your LinkedIn if you guys want to hook up with Danielle. Her LinkedIn is now in our chat. And she is Danielle kale K yal. In LinkedIn, and it's she got her full name, which is awesome. So you'll be it'll be easy to find. And that that was for the folks that are listening in. Fabulous. And in terms of guys, um, thank you all for coming back again today and listening to us. We will be announcing our next guest very shortly. So just be on the lookout for that. And if you're interested, you know, please join TL DC. This is a great network you'll meet some phenomenal people like Danielle, Moni, myself and all the wonderful people that we see on it. All of the great events and we do have an event at the end of the week. So I want to promote that. We are talking about elearning tools Thursday and Friday. And there's a huge panel of speakers, I get to talk about articulate rise. So I'm just psyched about that. But I actually can't wait to hear some of the other folks that are going to be talking because we're going to have tool overload. And that just gets my cake. To everyone have a wonderful rest of your day. And if you're interested, by the way in being part of the broadcast or being a guest, check us out at intersections in learning@gmail.com. Just drop us a note and we would love to talk to you and have you on on with us. Have a great rest of the day, everyone. Bye bye.

Danielle Kayal  
Thank you. Thanks, Danielle.

Lisa Crockett  
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