e-Learning and Today's Disrupted Workforce with Danny Ortegon

Luis Malbas  
All right, we're live. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the training learning and development community. Thanks for joining us today. Let's see, we've got it. And we've got Candace here, Lisa. Hey, Lisa Xinyue. Thanks for joining us. Today we are talking about a really interesting topic. It's something that, that it sort of stands out for me because I work as kind of a media producer in l&d. And I think that I sort of have the same sort of outlook on elearning. And organizations alike, very similar to the way that Danny looks at it. And so when I saw Danny's article on LinkedIn, which I've linked in the chat, it really stood out. And it's one of those things that I saw when he had posted it. But then I, and I'm like, Okay, I gotta respond to this, I have to say something. And, you know, I wanted to comment on it. But then I just kept on pulling it up and couldn't figure out. I was like, I'm just gonna reach out and let

Danny Ortegon  
the performance anxiety.

Luis Malbas  
Exactly. So yeah, we're going to be talking about elearning. And today's disrupted workforce, which I know this isn't something that is typically like for a lot of instructional designers and LX ds that we have, coming through to LDC on a regular basis. I know that, you know, talking about tools, or specific skill sets is really important career, all that, but this is important stuff. And and, Danny, I really appreciate you coming on today and talking about, you know, this article that you wrote, and I'm going to just sort of start out and ask you like, why exactly what prompted you to write this article? What were you seeing out there that sort of motivated you to actually put, you know, pen to paper or fingers to keyboard?

Danny Ortegon  
Oh, thanks, Luis. I appreciate your feedback, and that you were interested in the article, I think what I've seen and my perspective has always been, you know, kind of looking at the bigger picture and what's driving learning what's driving performance, and what's, how do business leaders see learning and development, and that's changed so much over the years. And then I think this last two years of the pandemic, I, you know, it's been a huge, huge impact, not only to learning and development, but to the whole world. And you start to see, I think, the first year, the pandemic, I think everybody was bit in shock, like, what's happening to this, you know, this is gonna go away soon, and we're kind of in denial. And then when it started happening, all of a sudden, people were not going into their offices, or people who are working remotely, they've never worked remotely before. Or just, you know, the employee dissatisfaction that was there and then was amplified.

It's something that I always thought about, because when you look at the learning world, it's, it's something that's has a multiplicative effect, you can create your content or develop a learning thing. And you could put it out to 1000s of people literally in seconds, right, which is good. And if you do a good job, it's great. If you do a bad job, everybody's gonna know. But what I noticed is that how people worked and how people were learning was changing. And one of the best indicators for that was the articles I was seeing and the stories and the things that people were sharing on my network. So I would see things on LinkedIn, I would see things on the learning guild, then I would start seeing things on like Forbes and Inc, and like business, you know, business articles that are saying that the workforce is changing, and how people work and where people work is really disruptive. And there was a kind of push pull going on. My wife was the head of HR for a huge HR company for a very long time as well network with other eight year folks. And a lot of the folks who are in the leadership position, we're just thinking, this is going to go away, we need to get our people back in the office, and you guys in HR, you got to figure out a solution to get people back to the office or else. And I think there was a bit of a denial in terms of what's happening and how significant this is. And interestingly enough, I think the stories that I've read, I think I read one and in the learning solutions, and and maybe even then LinkedIn is that the employee dissatisfaction as are always, always existed, but the pandemic has just amplified it. So people are working from home more, they're the remote. They're by themselves, maybe in small groups, and they're thinking, you know, life is too short. I need to figure out a better way to do my job or build a career and maybe it's not necessarily working at corporate, you know, XYZ and maybe not. Maybe that career path is not for me. And I think prior to that people were just you know, you're going through whether it was a matrix organization or vertical organization. As you're going through, you're checking off the boxes, figuring out how I can get on to the next level. And I think with the pandemic and the way that the workforce has responded that just kind of gotten disrupted for lack of a better phrase. And it's disruptive learn, it's put extra pressure, I think, on learning development folks and business leaders, because the US I think, in many ways, it used to be that working in online learning, developing online learning, it was something that's like, yeah, you guys have to do it, we're going to accept we're business leaders will accept that you have to do it, right. You prefer people to be faced this will accept. But then when you have people working remotely for the last two years, and people working on mobile devices, and people calling in on zooms, and content has to be delivered in different modalities, executives, business leaders, who will basically hold the purse strings, they're paying attention, you know, and the expectation levels are rising. So even though you know, back in the battle days, you know, when I would be developing content, or working on teams that no one paid attention to me, it wouldn't get any budget, it would just be safe, I just had that opportunity. And all of a sudden, now that opportunity is here, and people are paying attention to have a lot of we'll have a lot of influence and power. And they're gonna make sure that what we're developing meets the performance needs of their employees or their staff. And if it doesn't, there will be consequences, and for lack of a better phrase, they'll notice and they're gonna let you know that you're not meeting the mark, it's no longer I have a sales team or I have a marketing team or I have a technology team that needs to be trained on XYZ, you know, sales techniques, or technology or whatever, go build the course for me or go find the third party to put that together. And then we'll call you when we need you. Right when the old fear of a lot of learning development people is I don't want to be an order taker. But that's kind of the role some people fell into, well, now with, you know, the change in how people work and the disruption and, and where we are, and the amount of the levels, I guess of exposure and visibility. We're all up there. We're all kind of getting a seat at the table. Right? And I and over my career, I've been fortunate enough to work in small enough organizations or progressive enough organizations, not politically, just organizationally that said, Danny, we're going to trust you to do the right thing kind of theory, why we need you to help us solve the solution. But you need to prove that you can do it. And you need to make sure you know, you know who we are what we do in our business, you can't just create some one off and then walk away. And that was a very long winded answer. But I think things have changed and the visibility and expectations have risen. And if you talk to people that I've talked to founders are senior level executives, they're more focused than focused on how can you help my people do their jobs better? What will you what can you help bring to the table? And how can we partner to make that happen? They're not so much concerned about the technology, or the methodology, or the graphics or the video, or how sophisticated this which are all good things. They're more stuff they're really focused on, because they're really already really busy. And then you throw in the, you throw in the pandemic, and they're really busy, crazy busy. So they're going to sort things out, because that's what they've been trained to do and MBA school or wherever. This is what I can solve today. I'll put other stuff on the backburner. If you can't help me solve my problem, I'm going to find a different solution somewhere else, I'll just drop it.

Luis Malbas  
Right. So is it safe to say that lnd the role of the l&d Professional should be kind of pushed up a little more like within the organization because of what's because of all this disruption that's going on? Is it more important now than ever, that, that your elearning professionals are, should be more relied on within the organization?

Danny Ortegon  
I think it is, I think willingly or unwillingly, you're gonna get pulled in that direction. It's a I can think back to when I work with some clinical pharmacists, you could be talking about pharmacists for a brief second. And they're extremely bright people. They're very well educated. And in the Specialty Pharmacy world, they focus, they focus on patients, and these are not life and death situations, necessarily, but they were very serious situations and not passing out pills. They're infusing people with drugs over a long period of time. And when they needed, they asked me for help and building them a professional development learning tool. It was like, Okay, go give me your go back to your desk, create a plan and come talk to me and show me that that's going to work because they're working on empirical data all the time. They're gonna say, they're going to be able to say in their world, this stuff adds up. And I know that's going to lead me to a solution for my patient. And they viewed me as a learning person the same way. You have to show that what you have your data adds up and that's going to My pharmacists, my nurses, my pharmacy techs, do their jobs get certified gets certified to third party body and make sure that they get the training needs that they need that they can count on, and that they can replicate, they could actually print out a certificate, get and go to any company, and the pharmacy world is a look, I got this, and it's certified through third party and I was pulled to the table, right? You know, back then. And that was because the way the organization organization was structured was relatively flat, a lot of pressure a lot you're dealing with patients lives. And you know, the parallel to me is that the pandemic has really changed the way people work, just really, it's flattened out a lot of people's roles, you know, you, you have to deliver, and you have to, and you have to recognize that people are paying attention to you, senior execs are paying attention to you. And it's not just go develop your course, you know, in Camtasia, or storyline or somewhere else and then come back, and then we'll see what people say, you know, it's more like, how do you how are you going to improve my people's performance? And what can you bring to the table? And I think what I wrote about in the article is, how are how do we as learning development people communicate that in the language that they can understand. I mean, these are, these are wonderful tools, there's wonderful methodologies, but we you can't come to the table and speak in that vernacular, you have to speak in what you know, for lack of a better phrase, in business terms and terms that they'll understand in terms of performance. You know, that's,

Luis Malbas  
that is, yeah, that is so important. Just because it seems like your typical elearning professional, and maybe one of the reasons why, for instance, with this particular broadcast, we don't have a ton of registrations in is because a lot of this is just being able to start discussing strategy, right. And that's not typically someone like I know, like, Lisa Crockett is in and Lisa Crockett is strategic, I know, Danny, that your your strategic, I've always sort of looked at you as somebody who, like when you are consulting, you sort of go into an organization looking at the organization holistically first, and then you know, diving into a project. But that's not typical. And I think it is really, really important for folks to start looking at things that way. Because this is important stuff. And I don't know, like, you know, we used to talk about disruption is almost like, almost like, it was a it was potentially a good marketing thing, like, you know, these, this app is going to disrupt this and this is going to disrupt that this disruption is something that has absolutely been kind of like this avalanche of, of change that is impacting us in a variety of ways, you know, not just economically but socially and, and technology shifting altogether to accommodate all of these things. So there is a lot going on right now. But what are you seeing that is getting disrupted? Like specifically out there? Like if for elearning professionals? Is there anything like that people should be particularly aware of that off the top of your head that you can think of that, that maybe some of the folks listening would should should keep in mind?

Danny Ortegon  
Okay, well, let me just preface preface this with saying, I know it's hard to get a seat at the table and be strategic. Not everyone gets that opportunity. So I've been fortunate, and I've been lucky in that the chances that I have. So I recognize that. But I will say also that going forward into the near term and long term. I think there'll be more opportunities for that because there's just too much pressure. So I think what things some people can people can take away. I read the I don't know, if you read the LinkedIn report and reference my paper, it was called Workplace Learning LinkedIn transformation of l&d. And if you look that up, and I'll put it I can put a send it to you later. Yeah, it's a fantastic report of l&d across the world. And its, its documents, kind of what happened pre pandemic, and what's happening now. And some of the things they talk about and our that a lot of execs, even in the tech sector are not very digitally savvy. And at the same time, the projection from some was projected from Coursera. So maybe take with a grain of salt, the next three to four years is going to be 149 million new jobs that are technology or digitally focused. So if you have your execs who are already stressed, stress more by the pandemic, probably less digitally savvy than they could be even in the tech world, because the demands on for them as managers and leaders are really, really strong. And then you have all these new jobs coming on all these digital skills that have to get improved and amplified. How are we going to do that? Right. And I don't think there's an easy solution to that. But I do think by building a partnership and getting to know what leaders are going Through what their challenges are and, and to me, it's more of kind of, I think you mentioned before this holistic partnership that you are a partner, whether you're at the table or not, you're a partner with your customers to help them figure out how to improve the efficiencies of their staff or themselves. Because I think it's twofold, that there's always going to be a need for their staff to be trained, or improve their performance, that's not going away. I think the other thing that's happening is that because of the disruption in the workforce, there's more pressure on these executives to deliver, they have to deliver more, they have to be more digitally savvy, because technology is basically I tell my kids technology is eating everything. So it's everywhere, and it changes really fast. So not only do these execs have the traditional, how do I manage, you know, my, my p&l? Or my people or my projections of my budget? How do I figure out how to get my people trained up on the technology that's coming down the pike or this stuff that they're using? And can I do it? And what challenges will that entail? And so I think what you see what I perceive from a lot of the stories is tons of stories that are popping up on LinkedIn, if you go on LinkedIn, after the call, just go through, you'll see more and more stories about everything's changing, and l&d folks are gonna have to get, you know, get up to snuff because the world has changed. So I don't know that, you know, if it's going to be anything less than dynamic, and it's going to be dynamic for a long period of time, I don't see it going away, I see these pressures on execs continually increase, and I think they're gonna look for learning elearning leaders to help them develop solutions. And you can't do it in a silo, you can't do it in a one off, it has to be a partnership, because it has to be you know, to steal a term from the Agile has to be iterative, you're gonna have to try things out, you know, build betas, try them out, see how things work, come back and fix it again, and do it over and over again, kind of like you do in the technology world, but you're gonna have to do it in a way that the execs know what you're talking about. Because let's be honest, a lot of the execs are looking at at the granular level of how you develop content.

Luis Malbas  
Right, right, I can tell you, you know, I work for an online learning platform, huge one, our organization, and the competitors are doing better than they've ever done, and we're delivering, like, you know, 1000s of courses on a regular basis. And, you know, revenue has never been this good. It's absolutely incredible. And I think that it's, it's, it is really important for people to start, you know, the willingness to adapt, is going to be, you know, I think a key thing over the next few years, just because like you're saying, it is a really, really dynamic situation at this point. And, and we've all got to, you know, if you if you want to be able to take advantage of the opportunities that are going to be handed to you within this space, that adaptability is going to be key I that's just my opinion anyway,

Danny Ortegon  
I think you're absolutely right. And I think you have to be willing to take a calculated risk, you know, you have to an order to get it, you know, get to that point you you're gonna have to reach out and try to, you know, develop relationships with people that perhaps you hadn't had relationships with them. And in the past. You know, I think one of the things that, you know, I've talked with some of the people that I know, because my background, a million years ago was in technology. Early on the technology people lived in the data center, right, kind of lost in the data center. And the rest of the business was wherever it was customer facing or in the office. But over the years, technology has shifted into part of what how everybody does their jobs. So the traditional IT person had nowhere to hide. So what happened was it people's either, you got to move up, you got to deliver, you got to interact with people, you have to have conversations, you have to develop relationships, you have to develop skills. And I think I see that in a very much smaller version and the l&d world. And it's not that not to criticize the l&d people and online learning people. Because there are a lot of tools out there that weren't there a few years ago, they're more sophisticated, takes a lot of time to learn them. And then 1218 months, it's going to shift because somebody else is going to be out with a different platform or a different tool, a different take on that. And so we're spending our time trying to figure out how to make these things work as efficiently as possible. But our our customers or our performance leaders are just are saying how can you make sure that might people get, you know, the skills that they need? I'm not as interested in the tools that you're working on. But you still have to spend more time and energy, perhaps even more time and energy in your own time learning these tools and learning what's important. And one of the clients I had was a huge school client and they had millions of users and he has we partnered It was a fantastic project I worked with Nick Nick floor on and one of the things the founder said to me is you know, all this stuff is great. And he said but how can you help me make sure that the People that say they're going to start these courses actually complete them. And I said, You're absolutely right. I said, that is always been a challenge in that learning development world, you can have the greatest thing since sliced bread, that doesn't mean people are going to engage in it, complete the work, or get to the objectives or write that paper or whatever it is you're supposed to do. And, and there's no easy solution for that. And again, I think then that gets amplified. And I think a lot of folks would say, Oh, I spent all this you know, now we're spending hundreds of 1000s of dollars, and people aren't using the tool or not taking the training, it's all your fault and elearning and unlearning develop people if you want. Why didn't you fix that? Why didn't you make that better? And I think you have to be able to develop a partnership to have kind of a more level playing field to have those conversations, because that's the honest, people in the business side, they make mistakes all the time. You know, sales and marketing campaigns failed all the time. You know, technology, people bring up a bill tools, they fail all the time. So, you know, lnd can't be perfect. You know, and l&d folks can't have the perfect solution out there. They have to have an effective solution. But I think if you can humanize your relationship with them, you're more than willing. I think you're more likely to get a break to say you're partnering with us. We're trying to solve this problem together.

Luis Malbas  
Right? Right. Nice. Yeah. LISA saying it's all about strategy, culture, and especially climate. Yes. Yeah. Very. Yeah. Thanks, Lisa. I, you know, I'm just going to real quick plug for the elearning tool Summit, which is coming up in a couple of weeks, 12 tools, 12 speakers, and it's one of the reasons why I wanted to do something with just a bunch of different tools, just because I feel like there's just so much out there that just having a general understanding of a lot of different things can actually be kind of helpful nowadays. So you can sit into Captivate session, articulate rise session, which leads us Lisa is going to be doing and, you know, even PowerPoint, we have a bunch of tools featured in that particular event. So that's coming up in a couple of weeks. Now, in your article, Ghana, you had talked about what people can focus on? Why don't you just go over that a little bit? Let's just chat about that.

Danny Ortegon  
Let me just take a quick look at what I said.

Luis Malbas  
I had the article posted in the beginning of chat, but

Danny Ortegon  
no, no, no, I think you know, I think I talked about this. And I'm not the first person to talk about it, that it's more than about, it's more than the tool, or the tools or the methodology. And it's more than course completions. It's about improving a target and key business skills of your customers or your client or users. It's what have they it's kind of like the old idea of needs assessment. It's like, where are they now? What are they able to do? And what will this training improve and to what level? And that's where the focus is on the focus should be on performance? And I think we have to have that conversation about what performance over you tried to improve? I think in earlier presentations I've talked about as an elearning person in developing relationships, it's about what is the learning challenge, right? Are we focused on the learning challenge, because that's the important thing. That's where the rubber meets the road. And I think, with all the disruption, with all the tools of all the things that's going on, it's really something it's hard to kind of narrow down and focus on what the learning challenges and how are you going to measure that performance is improved, right by the tools that we've provided, and when it hasn't improved. And if you have that partnership, and you have this kind of iterative approach, you can go back and revisit it and make make adjustments and then continue to improve it. And I think that's important, it can't be the one off, here's your course, throw it over the wall, you know, take it and we'll see you at the next project, there has to be kind of a career, career life, career life cycle, where you're, wherever you are your developer relationship with these people, and you maintain it. And that's kind of hard, and it's hard to do. I'm not saying it's easy to do and think it's smaller organizations, it's much easier, large organizations is much more difficult because of the bureaucracy that's built in there. So the partnership thing is important. I also think

because of the number of tools that are out there and and the technology that's that's inherent and using those tools, we have to be really better at communicating why a set of tools or why a methodology is important to the business leaders, because they're juggling, they're juggling a lot of balls in the air, and they need to understand and the language that that makes sense to them. Why you're why you're promoted particular solution. If I go back to like my clinical pharmacy people, I needed to show them quantifiable data, why investing in this type of platform that we were developed. Totally custom was a worthwhile effort because it would get them to continue education. certification they needed for the pharmacists for the pharmacy techs for the nurses. And it's something that's it's mobile, it's transferable. So it, there's a value added that it was able to show it to them. And that takes a lot of work. And it takes a lot of time. But I think we're, like it or not, we're more closely wedded together, because one of the things I said earlier, which is the pandemic has changed how people have worked, and execs and people with old purse strings are paying attention to what's going on online. You know, it's not just zoom. It's not just people in the office, they're paying attention. So it's important for us to develop a cogent pay, cut cogent idea, and show that you can back it up with actual performance improvement. And then probably the last thing, you know, I think, last two things, and I've talked about this before, is getting to know our organizations, and I talked about a couple of the models I use an organization development world is you have to learn about the people, the process, the business practices of your customers or your clients, you can't just show up with a canned solution, you have to learn what they do and how they do their job, and have conversations and have interviews and get feedback, and maybe, hopefully get enlightened in how they do their work. And they even be able to have that crucial conversation with the leader who said to you, Danny, I need you to go talk to my team, my sales team, and they're gonna tell you exactly what you need. And here's what they're going to tell you. And then they tell you something completely different. If you go back to your leader and say, Hey, Joe, this is what they're telling me, it totally contradicts what you're saying. So you have to have that kind of relationship where you can figure out well, what, what are you going to really focus on what's really important, and what's going to help improve their performance. And you can't just be an order taker, and you can't just dictate it. So what does that leave, that leaves you building relationship relationship, to kind of parse through that information to see what's, what's viable, what's going to work. And the only way you're gonna get there, is trying to learn what they're all about, and just kind of show up with a prescriptive way. And then the last thing to me, and you'd mentioned, that is culture, and change, because everybody has gone through massive change over the last two years, not only within organizations, but then our world in our lives. And the change management aspect of business of learning, development is huge, and it's not going away. And we need to recognize that everybody's going to, you know, I talked about this before, there's a change curve, it's kind of like up and then goes down, and then back up again. And we're all kind of in these different dynamic places of change, where people are feeling like, Oh, my God, this is awful, I'll never survive, you know, the dropping down to all these changes that are happening, and then never gonna get out of what they call the pit. The thinking, No, maybe this isn't so bad. Maybe I can figure out a way to work from home or work remotely, or maybe come in a couple of days from work. Or maybe I can take this online learning and learn something that's going to reflect my performance. And then they start slipping back again, oh, my god, everything's horrible again. But then eventually, I get out of it. And so this is kind of idea that this changes this dynamic curve that we're all going to be going through, but we're all going to be at different stages of that change. We're all going to be a different places of saying, I'm all in for this change, or I hate this change, I'm never gonna buy in. Or I'm kind of, you know, I'm kind of in between, I'm kind of neutral, I'm not quite sure what's going to happen. And that's a natural thing for people to deal with. I know, perhaps in our, our performative world, we go to a job, we pretend like you know, we're all everything's good. And we got it all figured out, but deep inside, right, you never own humanity, right? And recognizing that everybody goes through that, I think is really, really important dealing with change, and it happens at the individual level. And it happens at the organization level. And then I think it's amplified by the disruptions that we had over the last two years.

Luis Malbas  
Right? You know, what it feels like to at the organizational level? You know, you have to keep in mind too, that it's not just l&d that's being disrupted, but you know, it is being disrupted marketing, sales, all of it is all is changing around. Do you think that there are fluctuations in relationship to these different departments? Is there anything that might be significantly changing between l&d ins and another, I guess, stakeholder in the in the organization?

Danny Ortegon  
I, you know, I think what's going to happen? And again, I would highly recommend that LinkedIn report and I'll send it to you is that the budget levels that are that learning development leaders are projecting are not I wouldn't say going through the roof but are significantly larger than they were over the last two years. So expectation is there's more performance to be addressed to be improved. And that you're gonna have more leeway to make make that happen as a learning development folk pickup People, but you're also going to have to be more responsible and accountable to the people who hold those purse strings. And that's, you know, you know, to the old adage, you know, how much was that something about, I can't remember what they added just as much as expected to, those have a lot of power, some idea like that. And so you're gonna have to be able to deliver because much will be expected of you. Because now you have the tools, now you have the budget, now you have the manpower, hopefully, to make it happen. And I think the kind of dark side of that, you know, because you have to develop this relationship, the dark side is there are some executives, that that the two things are happening that I hear from people in HR one is, if people don't come back to work, they're gonna punish them. But that's kind of what they believe, is that you need FaceTime, or your career path is going to suffer. You know, and that, to me is just unbelievably bad, unbelievably negative. And I think employees aren't stupid, you know, and beat because people are kind of fed up because of this fat dissatisfaction is that people will go somewhere else. Yeah. So if you're not helping improve people's performance, and then you're putting pressure on people to come in to a workplace that maybe they don't want to be in, then I think it's that disruption is going to be there for a very, very long time. And then, the other thing is that the digital, the demand on digital skills is huge. And, you know, it's impacting not only the employees, but to impacting leaders.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, and it feels like, just having the ability to understand certain things, and is just really, really important at this point, like just being able to have some knowledge of a little bit of everything, it could be really, really advantageous. And, you know, and I do think that I, you know, I wish that there was some concrete way of being able to, to, like, come out with a theme within this community where we can, you know, help support each other, so that we can talk about taking advantage of these opportunities that have been handed to us to be able to help more people and potentially help, you know, support our careers. But I don't even know exactly how to how to formulate that, you know, because it is really kind of more of an adaptability thing, and, and coming up with ways to just continue to, to morph into what's needed next. But if you have any ideas about that in the future, Danny, let me know, because I would love to be able to bring that to the forefront of this community, because I do think it's super important. Well,

Danny Ortegon  
I think I think I think you're absolutely right. And I think you're already doing it with the TL DC podcast, because one of the things I noticed was one that clients I work with, they work with schools and school teachers. And one of the concepts I learned, I think I'd forgotten really, is the idea of professional development, where teachers, Matt, and sometimes on their own time, but they met and taught each other or learn from each other, and what's working, what's not working, what methodology, what pedagogy, and maybe not just tools, what teaching techniques they are really good at, or what teaching techniques they need to get better at, or what management techniques, and they share that information, and kind of an informal organization and sometimes formal because the school or district is dictating it. But I do think things like TL DC, where you bring in a group, a diverse group of people to share information is a really important part of that. And then and you know, in my old days working in a big financial services institution, you would have people meeting at lunchtime, meeting for coffee, people meeting after work to go to professional development, networking things. They didn't really call it that at the time, but that's what they were doing. And I you know, I think that's important.

Luis Malbas  
Okay, I'm gonna have to Yeah, I'm gonna consider that because, yeah, it's just, you know, being able to find the resources to be able to produce stuff like that, because I, I do think it's important. And like Lisa was saying, in chat, like rounds, which kind of reminds me of, you know, of course, because being a songwriter, we used to do songwriter rounds, in different groups that I was in, and we would just share feedback, and you know, and do our performance. And And absolutely, this would be, that would be really, really helpful for folks.

Danny Ortegon  
Yeah. And then you trust probably trusted each other to be vulnerable and have that conversation and performance. Right, which is hard. Not easy.

Luis Malbas  
It's true. Yeah. And people would definitely benefit from it. Yeah. Yeah. This is good. Well, Danny, I'm gonna go ahead and wrap it up. Thank you so much for taking the time for doing this. This has been

Danny Ortegon  
so much. Enjoy. Always enjoy my time until DC

Luis Malbas  
Absolutely. And anytime you have anything you want to talk about, just hit me up. I love having you on the broadcast. And, and I'm sure everyone is just benefiting from your words of wisdom. Well, thanks Thank you so much. All right, and don't forget to send me that link. Okay, I will. All right. Take care of. Thanks, everybody. Thanks for joining us. And let's see next week, I think we have, I think we have one member showcase scheduled and I want to start doing a little bit more. I've been a little under the weather lately for the last couple of weeks, but we will get back into it and we've got the elearning tool summit at the end of the month, so don't miss that. And with that, we'll see you guys next time. Thanks, everyone. Bye hopefully

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