Community Showcase: Sylvia Cherry

Luis Malbas  
All right, let me see here, I need to pull up. You have such an interesting background and you've been doing this for a long time. And so I'd love to hear more about that. Let me let me see. I want to get the the view so that it's split

due to Change Layout, so that it's tiled. And

Unknown Speaker  
hope Oops, that's not what I wanted.

Sylvia Cherry  
Okay, there we go.

Luis Malbas  
Excellent. Okay, so you can hear me okay, and I can hear you. Okay, we've got this going. All right. So let me just do a big clap like that. One more time. Welcome, everybody. Thank you for joining us at the training, learning and development community. Thanks for being here. Today, we have another member showcase. And this one features features Silvia cherry, who is a TLD. C member, thank you so much, Silvia, for your support. And thanks for doing this is a little different. We're using Google meat for this recording versus using Crowdcast. So this might be a little different than our typical. But I have some wonderful questions for Sylvia, a veteran of the l&d space. You've been doing it for a couple of decades now. Right? So via Hello? Does it doesn't doesn't it? Well, I've actually been around for a long time, too. It just it seems like the time goes by so fast. And but I would love to hear more about your story. I have like 10 questions for you that hopefully you were might you were able to kind of look over a little bit in the email that I sent you earlier. Because some of the questions are actually, they're pretty, somewhat comprehensive. So hopefully, it'll stump you too much.

Sylvia Cherry  
I did not look at them. Okay, headline that says, meet you tomorrow. And I was like, good. I did not open it.

Luis Malbas  
Oh, that's, that's gonna make this a lot. funner. So we'll see. We'll see how it goes. But let's start with this. How did you end up as an instructional designer? How did you get into training?

Sylvia Cherry  
Clearly an instructional designer, so I kind of like a lot of people's stories entered through a side door. Right. You know, that wasn't my background. My background was, you know, a very technical background science background, I started out as a medical technologist. So working in healthcare for a little bit. And then I started in a corporate setting, bringing knowledge side that I used in the healthcare setting experience to help others, you know, I was basically a phone, typical phone, grab technical support, helping, you know, clients of the medical device company that I worked with, you know, use the products, so kind of like, little bit of training and troubleshooting over the phone. And then when the phone new phone reps joining the company, I was responsible for a lot of training. So that's how I started in, in training was really helping support systems training and onboarding training and customer skills training. That's how it all kind of started. Yeah, so

Luis Malbas  
kind of that accidental instructional designers. Right.

Sylvia Cherry  
Right. Wow. So it was responsible, you know, started being responsible for building training for systems for customer skills, no different workshops and just learning learning on the fly. Like probably a lot of people have done

Luis Malbas  
right and you've been at BD for

Sylvia Cherry  
or I was at BT for over two decades. Yeah. It's it's a leading medical device technology company.

Luis Malbas  
Love it and but now you have charity learning coach, LLC, so right, your own business it's it's it's your your own company. How about the inspiration behind that? Like, what when did you decide to do that? What was your mindset? Your like, is it you know, 21 years, it's time to go out on your own or what were your thinking when you decided to start cherry learning coach,

Sylvia Cherry  
I have been thinking about what's next for me. He kind of casually. But then I experienced the layoff after all that time. And that was kind of like, hey, you've been thinking about what's next for you, let's, let's take a pause and figure out what's next for you. And that was what came out of kind of the reflection, like, instead of this great experience, lots of value to share with with others, how can you do it? And that's where the seed, you know, started to germinate around cherry Learning Coach, you know, I've been leading teams leading initiatives. For all of that, know, all that time, I've learned so many lessons, what not to do, what to do, what works, what doesn't works, and just having a lot of success with different teams. And it seemed like a natural thing to like, let me see how I can add value in in a different way. Wow. So this, so did on this entrepreneurial journey, since then.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah. And it's only been like, just a couple years, right. It's been about a year, about a year. Wow. And so that is, must be a very, very different sort of experience and journey for you at this point.

Sylvia Cherry  
Yes, you know, trying to think of your identity in a different way, right? Because I identified with the same company for so long, with their company values, and you know, their mission. And just thinking around that about yourself, what's your values? What's your mission? You know, how can you bring value to, to others in a different way? It took me a lot of reflections and iterations to kind of land where I am today.

Luis Malbas  
Wow, any particular challenges that you've had over the last year? Like shifting in that way? Is there anything that you can share about that?

Sylvia Cherry  
Um, I think just trying to it's really like drinking from a hose. You know, there's, there's so much to learn so much to do. It's,

it's like thinking, Where do you start, and I think, a good lesson for me is just choose somewhere to start, because you could be paralyzed with no anxiety, thinking about all the things that you have to do, just choose a starting point. And, you know, all the skills that you might need to run a business, you know, there's technical skills, business skills, marketing skills, this, just choose a couple of things and start there. And I think one thing that helped me was just get a calendar, just do analog, old fashioned, you know, desk calendar. And so it's on the desk, it's just super huge, you can't miss it. And just think about what are my goals for this month? And just like analog system, write it out? Like, these are my five goals, and then start to break down? How am I going to do them? And what then, at the end of the month, kind of do a reflection about how did you do against old schools. And it's a lot of the skills that I was using in corporate America, you know, with my teams, you know, kind of looking at goals, I was using it for myself, and just taking a reflection on those goals. And sometimes I wasn't getting very much done, or it didn't feel like I was getting much very much done. And then it was more of an assessment of are these goals too big, too lofty? Can you break it down to something that's more achievable, and whatever happened during the month. Also taking the moment to reflect on the winds, giving yourself grace for what you didn't, like, didn't quite do, but celebrating that, I got that done, I was able to do these things I had I had networking goals ahead. Typically, self improvement in your learning personal development goals. And I just mapped them out at the beginning of the month, and at the end of the month, didn't access assessment and plan for the last month. And so it helped them momentum and helped me it's again, it's just using those skills that I have used for, you know, two plus decades, but in a different way.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, no, that is such great advice. It's amazing how just going to analog can be so helpful in that way. Right. It's, I know that for myself that I kind of learned that lesson too because sometimes I get so wrapped up in the technology that that ends up becoming the focus versus actually

Sylvia Cherry  
being right and That was a really wide analog, I think was working for me because, you know, trying to figure out what tools to use, there's so many tools, just the preponderance of tools, and you don't know where to start which one's the best. And you can go down a rabbit hole of trying to figure out which tool is going to work for you. And that's another thing that I think has helped me is just look at the tools that you have, because there's so many shining things, so many things to be excited about, give it a try. But what is it that you already have? And how can you use those and what maybe there's some hidden gems in those tools that you didn't really know, I've learned so much about PowerPoint that I didn't know about. I mean, I thought it was a, you know, an old fogy type of, you know, program, you know, just power, PowerPoint death that we had in the corporate world. But I didn't think it was a tool that I could really enjoy. But I've learned to so many other skills with it. And I've learned to enjoy it much more, I've done a lot of graphic type things with it that I didn't know I can do before. So just looking at, you know, different things within like, the Google suite or Microsoft suite and thinking about them in a different way. YouTube has been my friend. So just, you know, trying to figure out what I can use to do do things. You know, faster, easier, more enjoyable.

Luis Malbas  
Right. Right. And especially with things that you already have, you know, just Yeah, yeah, no, that's,

Sylvia Cherry  
that's, that's a big challenge. Because, you know, when you're in corporate America, not that it's a buffet of pools, but there's a lot of tools at your disposal that you don't even think about the cost of them. But when you're the one that's paying for them, is a different conversation, you got to figure out what value is this going to bring to me because everything comes with some kind of, you know, annual subscription or monthly subscription, and it really starts to add up. You know, thinking about things differently. has been, has been an interesting, it's been an interesting journey.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, yeah, no, I'm, you know, just getting just being leaner about everything altogether. I mean, in fact, even just with Google meat, that is something because I have a Google Apps account, I guess. And so this is kind of my go to, for crew meetings like this for the most of the time, because I don't want to pay for a zoom, I just, you know, as an independent person myself, like, I just don't allocate the budget to that, because I already have this tool, and it works pretty well. So yeah, and it's things like that, I think when you're freelancing, or you have to do things independently, you have to think that way. And

Sylvia Cherry  
think a little bit differently. And you asked me, you know, some of the other things that I think about differently leaning into different frameworks that are, that are helpful. I, you know, I have some, you know, from, you know, kind of instructional design frameworks that I like, but also just thinking about problem statements that has really helped me. And I'll, you know, maybe I will elaborate a little bit, like, if I want to do something, like I have a, you know, a germ of an idea, and it's kind of fuzzy, what I'll do is think about, and this is, you know, same thing you do when you're approaching a training, you know, request, right, you're wanting to dig down into, what exactly is the problem that you're trying to solve. And the clearer you can get on the problem, the better your solution is going to be. Because then you know, what you're solving for. And I think, you know, again, I'm doing this the analog, I've got a notebook that I'm putting down, here's the problem. And then I think I want to solve and just iterating on that problem till I feel like I've got a clear idea of what the problem is and what I'm trying to solve. And it's, it's just like, you know, all of these pools that I started to dig into, like with Kathy Moore, and map it, getting clear on what the problem is, you're gonna come up with a better solution. Yeah, that has been really helpful to you, no problem statement solution. And if you can't find the solution, maybe you don't really understand the problem. And going back to digging into the problem, that it's yeah, that for me has been very Very helpful.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, no, that is a great piece of advice as well. I love it. And getting to that solution. I mean, is it. So you have your analog notebook or piece of paper in front of you, and you're just kind of chasing it down? You know, writing things down? Is it just a process of like, just taking the time? And really, you know, brainstorming? Or what is your process for doing that?

Sylvia Cherry  
And so that's, that's really just the start of me trying to figure out it's more of a reflective moment trying to figure out, do I really understanding the problem? I don't want to give you the impression that I don't use digital tools. I absolutely do. I love a lot of mind mapping tools, like, you know, Milla note, I liked that one, quite a bit. But the start of it is, you know, something, I think physical. And that's why analog works for me. Yeah, it's like the, you know, the 10 to my brain or something, you know, in putting that to paper. And, you know, just and I just bought, you know, cheap notebooks, from the dollar store, whatever, and just sit and ruminate on what what is the problem I'm trying to solve. And then I might go to, you know, something like a man mind mapping tool, where I'm putting the problem clearly in the center, and then I can start to see what actions need to happen around that, that problem. So I think that saves, it saves me time, because it becomes clearer what I'm trying to do.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, I feel like sometimes when you write things down, you have more of a connection to it. I don't know if it's just the fact that you're touching it or, you know, the physical aspect of it, but I totally agree. How important is it for you to really be able to sit down and, and, and work this way, when you're beginning on a solution? How much? How much time do you actually spend on it?

Sylvia Cherry  
Sometimes not enough. And then, you know, I'll find myself feeling very scattered wheels turning in so many different directions. And I've learned to kind of like, okay, let's pull this in. It seems like we need to refocus. And then I might go back to the paper pen exercise. Love it. Yeah, but the more time I spend in the planning, I think I could put numbered quantum quantification to it. That the more time I spend in the planning, I think the faster he goes, if I'm trying to develop something in the design and the development for part of it, it goes quicker, because, you know, I could, you know, something like a mind mapping tool, I could start to think about, you know, fonts and colors and the theme the look and feel of it, you know, that goes with the overall end solution. Yeah, just to look and feel the how I want to realize that the script that I've been, I've written,

Luis Malbas  
love it, love it. So having done this for a while, you know, you've got over two decades over it BD what have you seen as far as the industry is concerned? Well, how have you seen it change over? I mean, the period of time that you've been working as a trainer

Sylvia Cherry  
for your life, you know, it was in a medical device industry, and that we were doing a lot of face to face, and it has its medical equipment and medical devices. And a lot of the thought was it requires hands on, and there was a lot of resistance to doing anything, you know, augmented reality and virtual reality or, you know, digital tools, there was a lot of resistance to doing because, you know, you're going to go to a clinic or hospital you know, doing something in a virtual environment, and that you haven't touched in So you went to a client site doesn't seem, you know, follow the, there's a lot of regulatory requirements and, you know, in the medical device industry and, you know, compliance pieces, and, you know, just with Digital's just a lot of resistance to doing these other types of learning or even, you know, trying them. And then in a corporate environment, there's a lot of I can't think of a nice word to say this, but there's a lot of things from an enterprise level that are being. So it's more, this is the way we do it. This is the tools that we have. And we're not interested in these other unproven interesting things that you might want to do. Yeah. But with the advent of the lockdown from the pandemic, you know, that really sped things up light years, as far as what people might have been interested in and might want to try. And, you know, the IT infrastructure, the speed of how that things were being able to be put in place changed, like it, like switch people's mindsets, because they had to write. So that was, I think, in the 20 years, it felt like, you know, this big ocean liner that you were trying to turn, and it wasn't turning very fast. Yeah. And then, you know, with, you know, there's a tsunami coming, we've got to get this ocean liner out of the ocean, you know, kind of thing, things move much, much quicker. So I think the clip of change, and the interest in change and interest in different schools, is what changed? In the last, especially the last five

Luis Malbas  
years. Wow, interesting. You must have worked a lot with SMEs. Yes. Wow.

Sylvia Cherry  
So did a lot of product launches, right. So new products being introduced to the market, the going to hospitals and healthcare settings. And people that are going out to install those or service those, you know, need to be brought up to date on the latest and greatest. So, you know, that product iteration or a new introduction of a product, or people doing phone support, needing to be able to support when the customers clients call about that product. And also, others within, you know, maybe the manufacturing, you know, they're building the product, but they don't really know what it's used for, or the implication of a poor quality product. At the client side, customer side, so lots of different audiences to speak to. And as new products are being rolled out, the people that had more of the knowledge we're, you know, in the research and development area, and, you know, very busy people, very high technical expertise. But then that may mean that very close to how the customers are using products or what's going to make sense to them. What's the application with the customers like, what's the use cases. So it was very hard to kind of nail down a training around this product, because you were basically learning how things worked with the product as it's being built. So it was a complete product that's being handed off to you. It's a product that's being built that you're learning as you're building training, and you're trying to knit together all these people. I mean, you know, that the old joke about an elephant in a blind, five blind people looking at, you know, experiencing the elephant ones that the trunk, ones at the tail and the ears, you know, and they all see something different. So, you know, you've got all of these subject matter experts, it's got a little piece of the puzzle, and you're trying to knit it all together into training for these different audiences for these different uses that they're going to use that training for. Very dynamic. space to be in as a trainer or an instructional designer, even to kind of imagine, from what I'm hearing from all these different pieces, what are going to be the actions that the user needs to understand how to do with this knowledge? So trying to make it not just a knowledge dump a content dump? But actually how how can this apply to that person's role? How can they enable the customer success with the knowledge that they have? And what they know how to do? So? Very, very, very challenging. So with your

Luis Malbas  
vast experience, right, you've got yours? And also different audiences? How about just like one, one great tip about working with SMEs?

Sylvia Cherry  
Right tip, I'm working with SMEs, I would say be they have their time to short. They don't have a lot of time. And so they're not going to understand the jargon that you use as an instructional designer.

So being very intentional about what you need from them, and what you can bring to the table, like, what, what can you kind of research before? How can you make it simpler for them around what questions you really need to ask them because it needs to boil it down, because it can't be an ocean, you need to boil it down to what it is that you really need to so you can be respectful of their time. And that they know that you've done some work that this is a partnership, they're just not there that eat up your time, that you're not there to just eat up their time. I think it's being more respectful of their time, and you approaching it in that way. You know, what kind of prep can you do? How can you boil it down to succinct questions that you would need for me from them? I wish I had that method book. Before I never knew about panties, mores. Oh, were when I was in the corporate space, I've just come to it in the last year. You know, I think that would have been really helpful for you No, but I probably did some of that work in that way not knowing that I was doing that. But you know, trying to be intentional with the questions. And I think it came from more

some management knowledge and you know, kind of lien knowledge, you know, not that I was expert in any of those. But you know, the exposure and the practice of those types of things, helped me drill down the types of questions that you're going to ask someone and like I said, being very respectful of their time being unclear. So the other piece, and then you asked me for one, but the other piece, I would say is trying to form relationships and and not just knocking on doors when you need something from someone. And it's easier to ask someone something work easier for the person to give something when this is gonna sound woowoo. But when that you see them as a whole person, by their just, it's not just transactional, but we're there to get something from them, that you're you're forming bonds and in relationships with them is, I think has been very helpful to me.

Luis Malbas  
That is, that is great advice. And I've heard that before, you know, like, take the time, you know, by you know, pick up some donuts or something or, you know, pizza. Exact Exactly. And I've heard that I've heard that lots of times before. Now those are great. I'm sure we could probably do an entire episode on just your, your expertise working with SMEs, you must have done so much of that in your in your past experience. It's it's really really impressive, especially for the industry that you're working in. It seems like that's that is a huge part of it. So and you have like a background using some great tools, you know, storyline rise Camtasia, Canva, Adobe Illustrator, you have like kind of the, what do you call that? It's the just the full run of things that help like produce great content. How did you gain all of that experience is that something that you just on your own decided to pick up and just do?

Sylvia Cherry  
Well, what for articulate it was, this was a solution within our enterprise when I was in corporate. So you're very restricted around what tools you can bring into the ecosystem. So articulate your vertical suite, the 360 suite was one of the tools that we had at a corporate level. So I, at the time, I started using articulate, I was working on software, more software applications, more software training. And it was a global rollout of this software across service service teams. So it was a five year initiative. And each iteration of it was rolling out to a different region of the world. And as we rolled to another region, that people that were already on the platform became like part of a continuous improvement effort. So it was continuous improvement and rollout, initiative, introduction all at the same time. So I was a process improvement person, trainer, you know, developing training content, I was doing, you know, wearing a whole bunch of different hats. And elearning became one of the solutions for me, because people that were newly rolling onto a platform, had to have an introduction to the system. And I just couldn't be in multiple places at one time. So the elearning became a solution for me. And that's why I kind of got introduced to elearning authoring. And so first, it was more writing, you know, design documents and writing scripts and handing it off to someone else that was going to actually develop, in articulate. So that's how I first started. And then it became kind of a budgetary pressure, I would say, to bring that kind of work into the team. And so basically, there's a team of technical people, you know, they're very, you know, science, technology based people. And looking at them, to start using this authoring tool, basically, like, Okay, we're gonna teach you how to be instructional designers, it's like, it's not going to happen overnight. So, that was my kind of start to digging into myself learning how to use the authoring tools and seeing how difficult is this? Can we do this with these, you know, team of people that we have, can they learn to use this if we, you know, set the parameters around? Can we use templates? Or, you know, what can we do to kind of speed this production line up around the different eLearning solutions that we were thinking about? So I kind of, you know, jumped into the deep end, you know, so after, you know, my nine to five I was doing at night, you know, learning how to use the tool and, you know, going on to LinkedIn learning and YouTube and, you know, figuring out what I wanted to do and trying, you know, things, see how they worked and, you know, dissecting what other people designed and seeing how they did it and trying to figure it out and a lot of frustration because I couldn't, you know, I could see things in my mind, but, you know, my skills weren't there to be able to do it. Right. But you know, slowly you know, building the skills to be able to produce what you what you see in your mind is, I'm not an expert by any means, but I can do so much more. Yeah, the authoring tools been what I started with. So that was, you know, in my foray into articulate. And then, you know, when we, that was, like, pre pandemic, and then when we rolled it pandemic, there was a lot of interest in getting short video clips of, you know, just in time kind of learning, but using videos. And that was my foray into Camtasia. You know, that was a tool that we were able to use within our ecosystem. So great tools to be able to have a disposal. So I did very little with Camtasia at the beginning, but within the last year, I've done some self learning with Camtasia, you know, on my own. And same with the Adobe Creative Cloud, you know, that's been more self learning.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, that whole, you know, all those tools, I mean, that just makes such a great elearning stack all around, you know, between Canva and illustrator, you kind of have everything covered. And so

Sylvia Cherry  
I have to learn to love Canva it has limitations, especially if you know a little bit about the creative, you know, the Adobe Creative Cloud, and you do some comparisons, you can see limitations, but the, I think the user interface, usability, it's so much nicer Adobe file, when I first opened that it's just like, so intimidating. Such you know, the learning curve is like a steep wall, you know, straight away. And, you know, Jesus closed that program, like, Oh, my God, I'm never gonna learn how to do anything in this. But I think just, for me, I love the creative nature of, of designing things. And so it's been kind of pushing myself. And, you know, make it ugly, you know, sometimes it just looks horrible. Until you learn more, and then you can sometimes go back and iterate on the design and figure out how I could do it better, or there's something else that takes it to the next level.

Luis Malbas  
Love it. No, thanks, Sylvia. And, you know, and speaking of tools and things like that, like how do you as a veteran of this space, like, how do you stay in touch with or stay on top of trends and tools and things like that your professional development and l&d? Do you have any things specific that you do?

Sylvia Cherry  
I found training industry about maybe about two, three years ago. And that has been valuable to have a lot of webinars and leader talks and things that you can join and, you know, connect with others and learn from, you know, vendors, presentations and things like that. Also add the local chapter and also was a member of the National. So just availing myself of the webinars and offerings, and there's so many interesting things that pop up on LinkedIn and your feed about there's a webinar on this or that. And I try to avail myself of all the webinars that I can. And then, you know, going back and actually listening to recordings and taking notes and YouTube, you know, subscribing to different, you know, instructional designers YouTubes and trying to recreate some of their, their designs, you know, how do they do that, you know, trying to figure out how to do it. Elearning heroes forum articulate, you know, community just joining, you know, different communities within LinkedIn, within Facebook, for instructional design elearning you know, just, you know, joining different communities. You know, that's how I came to this one to the sea as I just wanted to figure out what can communities could I be a part of, you know, just searching, you know, to find, you know, find your tribe.

Luis Malbas  
Right? No, absolutely. And I think that with TLDC, mostly, you know, there are so many other places out there that you can find really incredible instructional design content on. But for me, like my goal is primarily to, to find the culture of instructional design and sort of people love it, because that's what personally fascinates me the most. I've been in the space forever. And it's always been just the people that I've met at events at conferences and things like that, that I'm like, Yeah, everyone is so generous, and they're so interested in sharing their ideas. And, you know, just I think trainers, by default, are just generous people all around. And I'm just fascinated by that. And so I've just created opportunities like this to be able to talk to people like us, so it gets just lucky that way.

Sylvia Cherry  
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a good deal. So, you know, trying to find different groups to join. It's been challenging, you know, with the pandemic, especially when we were kind of locked down and couldn't go very many places. So I was looking for things to join virtually, you know, just trying to avail myself of all the different opportunities. I like to walk. So I usually choose a podcast. And I usually choose a podcast by length. So you know, that, you know, because I want to have a short walk or a long block, and that lots of times determines, you know, what podcasts I'm going to choose, but sometimes I'll choose a podcast that's, that's longer and have a shorter block and kind of build in a cliffhanger. So I come back to the walk and finish the podcast. But yeah, just listening, you know, finding different leaders within the space.

It's been interesting to, you know, picking up tidbits from, you know, people that are asking questions that I didn't think to ask, or asking questions that I was thinking of, and maybe didn't know the answer to. So it's just an interesting, you know, learning from others. Yeah, so. I love I love learning. Right. So, that's, that's the fun part, you know? Yeah. And, you know,

Luis Malbas  
I think that's what it's all about. And, you know, that's, that's, that's such an important piece to all of this. So I have to wrap things up. And I want to ask you just this one last question. So Sylvia, if you weren't like an l&d professional, what do you think you would be instead?

Sylvia Cherry  
Ah, that's interesting.

I would probably be a writer. That's, it's a similar type of thing for me, and that

in the writing of something that you're bringing together, maybe new ways of looking at things, or a universal idea that you've been able to crystallize in a different way for someone and then kind of releasing that and adding value to other people. So I think it's a similar type of work, but being done in a different way. You know, you're you know, you're still kind of dispersing knowledge, I guess my term would be, but, yeah, it's still it's things that are coming through your experience that you put a stamp on, but you're releasing out into the world, they don't know what value that's going to have for someone but it's going to maybe have a value that you didn't even anticipate and have an impact on someone else's life or success. And I think that what we that's what we do a lot with training. Yeah, we might have, you know, a certain intent but you know, you're learning nurses are bringing, you know, their own experiences to that work, right. And they're taking way, maybe they're getting what you intended. And they're able to, you know, change that behavior or that impact that performance or getting that knowledge. But they're taking that and making it something else, you know, based on their experiences, and they're taking that out into the world. And you've had that kind of impact on them that they've got that gem to take with them. Yeah. And I think writing does a very similar thing. I enjoy writing as well. So I think, you know, that has a similar type of impact.

Luis Malbas  
That's great. That's fantastic. I haven't heard that one before. So that's, that's very thoughtful and very insightful. I mean, the conversation all around has, has been that and I really appreciate your time, Sylvia, and you're supportive to LDC looking for I wish that we could have the live audience in because I know that we will have tons of commentary from folks because you have really shared some gems with us. And I really appreciate you taking the time. So yeah. So thank you.

Sylvia Cherry  
It's been it's been a pleasure. And I'm sorry, we couldn't get the whole live thing happening. You know, the technology will get you every time. But it's been a pleasure. Thank you.

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