Community Showcase: Jennifer Grimes

Luis Malbas  
So you have a very, very strong graphic design background. And then you moved into l&d into instructional design. How did that happen?

Jennifer Grimes  
Well, I went to school for graphic design and photography was the double major thing. And I kind of cut my teeth in the advertising world, and marketing kind of world. And while I was doing that, I spent some time in DC in working in an internal communications department. So I got to see both like the advertising side of things, and then sort of that internal corporate side of things. And then eventually,

I would kind of work my way up to the point where, you know, you kind of hit the glass ceiling, where it's either become a creative director or go out on your own. And so that's what I did, I started freelancing, and about 15 years ago, I was still in the graphic design space. But I found that my, my niche was really working for corporate communications departments. And so the bulk of my clientele was were HR professionals, and in that sort of line of work. And that sort of started to transition into folks who were in the l&d space as well, where they, they would need graphic design to support those things. And so, I started, I started along that path, and helping those folks out. And then it wasn't until about, I was probably about 2012. Oh, my gosh, it seems like yesterday. But I hooked up with a woman who was a corporate trainer. And she is really good at the facilitation side of things. And it's someone who I had worked with back in my agency days as well. So I had a good relationship with her already. And she was looking for someone to help bring some online training products to, to her clients, she was getting a lot of requests at that time, too. Like we need more videos and that sort of thing. So I started helping her out with the development side of things. And it was also around that same time where I got the opportunity to teach graphic design at the Cleveland Institute of Art. And so that was like another networking thing, it was someone else that I worked with in my agency days, who was who was adjunct there, who brought me on board. And sort of between those two, it was really kind of, you know, building more and more to the l&d space. And I finally got to the point where I was working on the development side of things, and I'm getting these scripts and things that are kind of coming my way. And I'm noticing, like, I think these could really be better, I really think we can improve upon these. But you don't know what you don't know, right. And so, I that's when I really started trying to to, you know, educate myself on some things. And I finally finally drink COVID, I had the time to go back to grad school and get the, you know, instructional design certification, which, to me was was worth its weight in gold. Because that's when it pointed out all the things like the again, you don't know what you don't know. And it sort of opened up a lot more for me to be able to help out my clients. So I still do the bulk of my work is still development work. And I do more of the you know, helping out with scripts come along, or at the very beginning of projects, when they're like, this is kind of what we want to do. And I'll I'll put in put in, put on my you know, Id hat for that sort of thing. And then I still also help out though, the, like, I haven't lost sight of the graphic design stuff, too. I obviously I still teach it, I still enjoy doing project, you know, branding, like if there's new projects that are rolling out that are new products or services within that internal communications or l&d space, I'll work on branding projects for that sort of thing. And, you know, and of course, there's always, you know, job aids and pop up banner display, you know, all that kind of stuff, newsletters, and like all that kind of stuff that needs to go with it. So, so I enjoy, like looking at projects sort of holistically, and then making sure everything ties together. Well.

Luis Malbas  
I mean, that's a potent combo, having that graphic design background and also being an instructional designer. I mean, even the disciplines themselves, they have some similarities, right. You must be able to go back and and you know, things that you have learned systems and processes as a graphic designer been able to sort of take that into your instructional design system as well. I think that's really incredible. So

Jennifer Grimes  
marketing as well, too. I think that having a marketing lens and when you're looking at it stuff, I think is kind of is helpful as well.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, totally. So you started out as a freelance graphic designer, and then you went into a freelance ID

Jennifer Grimes  
basically, yeah, yeah. That's kind of that was the transition that happened.

Luis Malbas  
Wow, that's amazing that um, that's, um, yeah, that there must be just such a wealth of knowledge that you were able to fall back on as you move from graphic design into instructional design because just even learning how to be a freelancer altogether as an instructional designer can be can be a huge challenge. So Uh, sure, this, this might not be that relevant. But it was one of the questions I wanted to ask you. But is there anything now as an instructional designer, that you sort of wish you had known? When you started out your career? Anything? If you can go back to yourself, like, say, even five years ago and say, here's some advice, do it this way?

Jennifer Grimes  
Oh, I don't know, I think there's always something that can be improving upon, I'm still working on my own business systems and trying to improve those so I can streamline things. So I'm not the one who's working until two o'clock in the morning, I did a deadline sort of thing. So I'm still working on some of that sort of stuff. But as far as the instructional design stuff, I wish I would have gotten my certification earlier, I just think that would have helped. But again, you know, just timing, I think things come to you when they need to come to you. So. Right, right.

Luis Malbas  
That's great. Um, so how about your graphic design background? How does that influence your work? Now, as a learning experience, designer,

Jennifer Grimes  
to meet to me, one of the things I'm kind of really passionate about is, is merging the two together. So everybody, you know, we use the term graphic design, and that's what I use on my LinkedIn profile, and all that sort of thing. But personally, I really like to think of it more as visual communication. Like, I think, I think that's what they used to call the major like, back in the day, you know, it's like the ad, isn't it? Your visual communication. And to me, that makes a lot more sense to me, because what you're what you're, that's what you're trying to do. And so, being able to tell whatever the story is, that you're trying to tell visually, is so important. And to be able to do it effectively. And to be able to do it without, you know, overriding cognitive load and doing all you know, like making sure you're hitting all those points that that your learner's will be able to get what you're trying to say quickly and efficiently, I think is really important. And so, you know, I've been trying to dispatch I've been trying to take on doing more talks and things like that, to kind of help folks out that, it seems to me, there's a lot of folks who are coming into the field that I've been interacting with, because I have been trying to learn, you know, new ID skills myself. So it's been classes I'm taking and groups I'm involved with that. It seems like there's, there's not a lot of graphic design skills that are being taught. And so people just, I feel like they just need that like little extra punch of their work to kind of help them understand why it's so important that you think simpler, or you make sure you have consistency or using proper alignment, or you're grouping things properly in it, because it's not just to make it look pretty. It's to make it more effective. And so I don't know, that's, that's one of the things I really enjoyed talking about. And I could go on for hours,

Luis Malbas  
right? No, it seems like you would have like, absolutely a supreme premiers sort of perspective on that just having the background you do, because I don't know, in a lot of the conversations that we have here, I do hear from folks, you know, they're as instructional designers that is often one of their most challenging chips, one of the most challenging parts of their job is sort of the visual communication or the graphic design, that that they're having to take on, they just don't feel like they have those skills, and you're just trying to build those out. But you already have that going. So tell me something when you're talking about development? Like, what exactly do you mean by that, when, when it comes to the work that you do?

Jennifer Grimes  
Well, to me, I feel like development is really just that building up the end product, whatever that is, for me, it's mostly like the online trainings that I'll be doing, or it'd be viewed as a slide deck for, you know, instructor led training or something like that, or, you know, learner booklet that goes home with them or, you know, anything like that. So me it's, that's, it's like, sort of like putting pen to paper, quote, unquote, to to get things done. That's what I feel it was the development was I'm looking at the ADDIE model. Is that right?

Luis Malbas  
Right. Does your background in graphic design ever come? Or? Does it ever end up like sort of at odds with the things that you want to do as a learning expire? experienced designer? Do you ever, like have conflicts between both?

Jennifer Grimes  
Um, I don't know unnecessarily that it would there's conflicts, other than sometimes I'll want to do things that are like, I know, it's going to take me way longer than maybe what I've put in my estimate, because I have this great idea. So those sorts of things can come up. So I have to figure out how to do it. You know, how to do it within the budget that we that I've set up for myself. So that sort of thing will come up. But yeah, I don't see any other like, super conflicts. I mean, I feel like the two work together very well. So it's, you know, it's not like a binary it's not like you get one or the other. It's like they they need to work together.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah. Yeah, I guess I'm sort of trying to relate it to the question that I have where how do you balance the need for engaging design with If effective learning outcomes

Jennifer Grimes  
Yeah, I to me, I don't see it as a balancing one with the other. I feel like it's something that they need to come together and and work towards the same goal. So yeah, I don't I don't see those as two opposite sides of a spectrum. Yeah,

Luis Malbas  
that's fascinating, because it just seems like having having the skills that you do, you're just going to be able to, to utilize that. I mean, yeah. Because they're, they're almost like, yeah, having two separate things, and then trying to combine them in that way I can see there may be some challenges, but more often than not, they're probably just can really, really complement each other. Exactly. Yeah. So I do have this question about these awards that you won. You have? What is it the silver tower award from the Cleveland Business Marketing Association for greeting card design, and the Crystal Award of distinction from the communicator awards? Sorry, I just pulled these out of your LinkedIn. Yeah, that's all right. Yeah. You're waiting for the newsletter design? What are those? Those recognitions mean to you? Do they influence your work at all? I know, they're kind of older.

Jennifer Grimes  
Yeah, they're, they're a little older. Honestly, I'll be honest, like my, my, my take on a lot of these these awards. I think they're, I think they're great for corporations who have the time and the money to invest in that sort of thing. But for for myself as a freelancer. As long as I'm having repeat customers, like, that's all the award that I need. If if people were coming back to me over and over and over again, which, let's face it, pretty much all my customers do. Like that's all I really, that's what I need. So I don't know that the accolades, you know, like, right, they don't, they don't influence me in any huge way. So

Luis Malbas  
do you? Do you ever go after any that, like, say, the demo fest or awards or anything that? No, I

Jennifer Grimes  
think there's something like that, like, because those are closer kind of fun? So I haven't yet, but that's, uh, yeah, it's like, that might be something I would be more into. Because I don't know, for me that I love being able to demonstrate things, what you're doing and be able to talk to the people rather than just like, here, let me fill out this form and send my money and ship it off to this, you know, team and not really being able to interact with people to get the feedback on. Right,

Luis Malbas  
right. No, it's a lot of fun doing that. I mean, I think that huge part of that entire process is is is that you get to tell that story, and talk to people as they come by and check out your project. And you know, that that experience, just alone is worth getting in there. And if you're going to the conference, I mean, basically, I think they just let you just have to sign up and everybody who signs up can can participate. So

Jennifer Grimes  
my biggest problem is always like most of the work I do is confidential, so I can't really show it because it's for other clients. So I'd have to do like a personal project and has time.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, it

Jennifer Grimes  
has to be something I really want to do, I really want to try and I really want to put out there to do a demo of it, something like that. But

Luis Malbas  
so let's talk about some of your storytelling skills. How do you incorporate storytelling into your work? And why do you think that it's even important in learning experience design?

Jennifer Grimes  
Oh, yeah, I, I love trying to incorporate storytelling as much as I can. It depends on on what I'm working on. It's actually been something I've been able to push them on my clients who have been sort of dragging their feet, their feet, where they, they're like, we just want to tell about the product. And that's it. And that's all that matters and kind of put it you know, and it's okay, so I've been I've been having good luck doing more, you know, scenario based trainings and more things that have at least a little bit game, or some sort of something in the background with that. So I enjoy adding that sort of element to the training. And then, again, with the visual storytelling that again, that I think that just goes hand in hand because it helps set the tone for you know, the visual tone for things whether you know, if it's, I saw something Tracy Carroll had posted on elearning heroes where it had a very, like, film noir kind of vibe, you know, and it sets a very much a tone to what you're trying to do.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. It seems like, yeah, those opportunities for creativity is probably something that really appeals to you. I mean, do you have any examples of some storytelling that you may have created that that you can share? Oh, well, I,

Jennifer Grimes  
I had one recently, it was just it was silly. It was campy, but it was kind of what was needed. Where there were the the client I was working for, they were introducing a new product that had a very specialized base to it that had all sorts of fancy bells and whistles to it. And so we did we did a training that was the the basic training and it was very, this very much sort of this army kind of themed to it that had like these these recruits that were going through, you know, like they were the recruits going through the training of this for the basic training and stuff and it was it was just very cute. It's very campy, but, but it was big hit Not everybody is it was very different from a lot of the other kind of, you know, product training that we've done before. So great fun. Yeah,

Luis Malbas  
yeah. So you have a little more fun with something like that than, than the typical one. Is there anybody in the industry that you follow that is kind of like on the storytelling side of things that you might get some inspiration from?

Jennifer Grimes  
Yeah, well, I definitely like following Christina Tucker with all the scenario stuff that she does, for sure. You know, that's, that's fun for me to, to learn from. And I've learned a lot from her too, on how to do branching. And stuff like that, as well, too. Oh, and I wish I hit you know, on the tip of my tongue when those people was terrible with names, there was a session that I went to, at the Learning Solutions conference. And they were talking about doing storytelling from a using the comedic arc in and not as in comedy, but as like a way to resolve different storytelling plotlines for your online training or for your, you know, your, your narratives, and it was very interesting to give very, like specific points as to like, here's what you need to do to start things. Here's where the conflict is. Here's where you know, it's you could see like rom coms, follow it, how sitcoms follow it, and how you can make use your actual, you know, a scenario or something that you're you're doing follow that same comedic arc and so I have yet to be able to use that yet, but I'm, yeah, that

Luis Malbas  
sounds really interesting. That was at this last learn illusion. Yeah,

Jennifer Grimes  
it was the last one in April in Orlando. I can't remember who the person was.

Luis Malbas  
Speaker wasn't with a red screen by chance. No,

Jennifer Grimes  
it might have been you could probably say that he might be like, I don't remember.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna have to look. I'd like to learn that I'd like to. Alright, um, so what do you think about the intersection of design and l&d evolving, as going forward? Is there anything that you see any trends, that that you see between design and l&d that, that that's going to continue to sort of shape the space? Yeah, well, I think

Jennifer Grimes  
there's been, you know, with, I mean, this has been a couple of years already, people talking about, you know, the learning experience design versus no, instructional is, in my mind, the learning experience, design is that sort of intersection of interface design, and user experience design, along with, you know, the instructional design of the development of all that. So, I think that's always going to continue to be the case. But however, of course, you know, that the influx of AI, I think, is really interesting. In terms of graphics, and how that can help things out, you know, there's, you know, there's Photoshop, just roll out of beta of different ways you can do interesting content fills and stuff. I'm really curious about some of the legality issues that are along that go along the ride with that as well. You know, who owns the rights? Can you use it, especially as a freelancer, when you're saying, like, part of my contract is that you now own the rights to all of this work? But do you really because I used something to create it. And so it gets really murky? So I think that's a kind of an interesting thing to kind of follow and see how some of that ends up shaking out.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah. Are you playing, playing with any of the AI tools, gaviglio vitals,

Jennifer Grimes  
not not so much with the design to more with the writing, because that's kind of where I need, you know, I think that design stuff, I tend to, you know, I can come up with things pretty quickly, because I've been doing it for forever, though, I will use more like the chat GPT to kind of help me with like, I need some headline ideas and that kind of thing. I've been more like noodling around having fun playing with some of the ones that make the videos and that kind of stuff, but nothing that I've used in any of my courses at this point. So because part of it is I am concerned about some of the legal ramifications of right thing, some of it. So

Luis Malbas  
definitely, I played around a little bit with the image stuff. And it's, you know, it's fun. I mean, you could actually go to, like, Google bar has really pushed out something that is simple to use, and has come up with, you know, prompts that I've used have come up with some pretty decent stuff. But it's true. It's like, is it okay to use this, you know, it might be in the style of somebody that you don't even realize, and I you know, I don't want to, to, you know, to copy something that that isn't rightfully mine. So yeah, I kind of stay away from the image stuff as well. Chad GPT, though, that has been really a huge help with some of the stuff that I do. Yeah. Kind of ridiculous. All right. So um, so what keeps you inspired? Is there any is there anything or anyone that keeps you inspired during the l&d work you do?

Jennifer Grimes  
Know, I'm always one of those, you know, shocking that I'm in l&d and that I love to like, learn new stuff, right? I'm sure that's like a common theme you hear from everyone. So I am definitely one of those people who I always have the backlog of different classes. I'm interested in what to do and try you know, like, there's always new things that I'm trying to figure out and learn about. So I think a very sophomore innovated in that way?

Unknown Speaker  
Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Grimes  
Yeah. And also just being a freelancer and working from home and like, I've been doing this for 15 years now. What keeps me motivated is getting out and meeting people and seeing people in person in you know, doing things. Why sign up for something like this, you know, being able to talk to other people. Absolutely. I think that's huge. Like I even noticed some people that were in my local ATD chapter, but that were registered for the event. So

Luis Malbas  
yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Grimes  
So yeah, definitely does help that I think that really does help me keep me motivated and

Luis Malbas  
nice. Is there anything? Have you taken any courses or anything lately that that might be of interest?

Jennifer Grimes  
Oh, let's see. Well, I was I was doing some more like advanced storyline skills. I started my I started my career in Captivate, be cut because I'm so used to all the Adobe products. I did most of my work in Captivate for years. And it's only been the past year or two that I've switched over to doing more in Storyline. So I've been I've been trying to just, you know, hone my storyline chops, and I'm finding it, finding it pretty easy because I think Captivate is more difficult when it comes to programming triggers and things like that. So I think, more difficult. I, well, I personally like it better how you do in Captivate, because you can do everything in one file, just keep it all in one screen, rather than have to program individual triggers on and do these drop down menus, you can just type it in and you're done. Yeah, so I like that better about Captivate. But then Captivate also has a ton of things out there that are just clunky, that I'm not fond of either. So. So that sort of thing. And I know I've got a some JavaScript classes on the horizon that are sitting in Coursera that I paid for that I need to start that I need to start. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. Right. You

Luis Malbas  
know, so Coursera as your learning platform of choice.

Jennifer Grimes  
Um, it's, I don't really have one of choices, just one that I happen to. I found the courses that I was interested in.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah. Yeah, I do that thing where I collect courses, like, like, I'll just buy like some cheap ones, but then I never take them. I just sort of let them sit in there. Like, like buying books. Yeah. It's pretty funny.

Jennifer Grimes  
I that. Well, yeah, I might do that too. Of course, that I did last summer that I'll just as a shout out that I thought was very good. It was just the idol Academy. But it was the they had a freelancers boot camp, which I thought was actually brilliant. You know, I had already been a freelancer for years and years and years, but it was specifically for instructional designers. That again, that was like the the amount of resources, they gave you just the things to help and set things up a little differently. But then it was totally worth it was totally worth the investment for that.

Luis Malbas  
Nice. Oh, what other ways do you stay on top of your professional development?

Jennifer Grimes  
Oh my gosh, um, well, I threw when I'm teaching. Actually, it was very excited. They finally this year rolled out a new department to help support some of the teachers there before it was it was kind of like ragtag people do what they want. And they finally had, they had fun to come in and set up an entire center and had someone in charge of it. And so through there, there's more things about, I can learn more about facilitating classes in person and things like that, rather than so it's a different than what I'm doing day to day. So I really, I enjoy that. And that helps with like the in person sort of teaching. Yeah. I mean, they have book clubs and, you know, lunch and learns and all that kind of stuff you can do there as well. So that's, that's something different I get to tap into during the school year, at least not the summer.

Luis Malbas  
And you went to learning solutions, and that's out of pocket is our conferences like a regular thing for you?

Jennifer Grimes  
I try. I try to when I can, it just depends on scheduling. It's the one thing is challenging is working at around teaching during the school year is being able to, you know, balance my schedule with that. So hopefully, wow. But I do I do like to I do like to do and I'll do the online conferences, too. When they come up, you know, yes. You know, when you host book, you know,

Luis Malbas  
would do one every month, at least Yeah. So um, last question, Jen, your favorite one. Somebody looks like Brandon had it. Oh, we have a couple more here. Let me actually let me get to these first. So which Id certification program did you complete?

Jennifer Grimes  
Oh, it was through Bowling Green University in Ohio here.

Luis Malbas  
Okay, nice bowling.

Jennifer Grimes  
And actually that was actually a really interesting experience. I'll let you know too. I really enjoyed the professor's there and they had it set up where you could do you know the certification or, or continue on and get your full Master's? And I got to the point where I finished a certification and I sat and I talked with my professors that I was working with and you know, was asking about like, do you think I should continue on With the Masters, you know, and I was shocked by their honesty where they actually, they had actually advised me not to continue on with the Masters because the type of the classes that they needed for that, like they understood the type of business that I had and where I was going with my business so like, I wouldn't waste the money on it. You're not going to get enough unless you really want that mid. You know, your, your so I really love the honesty that they have. Yeah,

Luis Malbas  
no, that's that's don't often hear that seems like yeah, you know, these academic institutions will take as much money as they can when they Wow, that's pretty amazing. Um, let's see here. Oh, here we go from Brandon, this is a good one. What advice would you have for l&d professionals that want to create great training material but aren't artistically inclined?

Jennifer Grimes  
Well, Brandon, I grant it as part of my CV ADT chapter. So we can connect for one. So there are some great videos online. I know Devlin Peck does a lot of good videos about using certain graphic design elements. Or some more basic, I should say more about like the basics of graphics design that you can use within l&d space. But I think you could also just get in there. And really, what you need to do is understand the basics of composition, alignment, proximity, repetition, there's really just some like really core basics that if I think if you can get those mastered, that really, it helps open your eyes to assessing your own work to be able to be like, Okay, this is I need to fix this. I don't I don't need it to access. It's, it's a skill that you can learn like anything else. It's not just I feel like a lot of people think it's just like this woowoo thing that's out there, and some people have it, or some people don't, it's like, no, it's literally it's a skill you can learn. You just need to train your eye to be able to see these things. So true.

Luis Malbas  
It's true. Yeah, I know, when I was in college, my first couple years, I did take one drawing class. And then I took a graphic design class. And those things, those the skills I learned in there stuck with me, like, I still use them to this day, you know, even just transferring that knowledge into, you know, building something in Photoshop or Canva, or whatever. You can just learn it in a class and it really is helpful. And photography, too. Right? You can take photography classes, and learn how to

Jennifer Grimes  
learn composition and lighting is good to understand lighting.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's something that I need to do. My wife is a photographer, but I'm not but and, I mean, her photos are amazing. And my just like these terrible blurry things, just, you know, things you can't even understand what I'm trying to capture. So, um, if you weren't an l&d professional, you would be what? And let's just say, I don't know, budget wise, I know, we've talked about this in the green. I say where you are right now? Like,

Jennifer Grimes  
if I wasn't an LNT? Honestly, I probably would. I I'm very interested in psychology. So I think I would, I would love it because I love, you know, trying to figure out what's going on people's brains, their motivation, and all that kind of stuff. So I could probably be in that field. So I feel like I might be in that field a little bit in my personal life when I'm talking to things.

Luis Malbas  
Right. No, that's interesting. I have, there are people that I that, that I regularly talk to that, that are therapists and I sometimes I just listen to their conversations, and they just sound absolutely fascinating. I don't really I get intimidated about adding my own comments, because then I feel like they'll start cross examining me. But it's, it's really interesting listening to them talk and, and sort of the dialogue that goes on because it's it seems very, seems very honest than just, you know, together. So yeah, I have this. It's kind of the same fascination. All right. Well, Jen, that's it. We're, we're all done here. That was the last question. Thank you so much for participating in this. Post your interview, as is a podcast and also have it on the website so that people can learn more about you. And anything we need to know about nectar design, can we can you give it a pitch at all? Um, well,

Jennifer Grimes  
with vector design. I like I said, I focus mostly on the development side of things. For the most part. I also offer creative services like creative direction services. So if you're starting a program and you need templates done, or you need an AI to get that design, rolling, I'm very comfortable with setting direction and coming back in and helping oversee that as well. And that's something I'll do for some of my clients as well. So kind of in a nutshell, when I do

Luis Malbas  
your, I went to your website, very nice. Okay, this is great. That's simple. It's clean, it's easy to navigate. And you told a good story. You go, you win. All right. All right. Let me make sure here. Oh, here we go. One last thing from Kim. I always hear about the non designers design book as a good reference. Is it okay are outdated?

Jennifer Grimes  
You know, I'll be honest. That's one that I haven't read yet. I think just because I have the design background, it's one that I haven't I haven't gotten into. So I'm sorry, I can't give you a, maybe some other folks can give you a yes, yeah, I'm

Luis Malbas  
gonna have to check him. I'm gonna check that one out. I might have it where I work. We have access to all these free books. Maybe we have that. And I'll check it out. Because I would love to read something like that. All right. And with that, Jen, thanks so much again, for your time. Really, really appreciate it. Thanks, everybody, for being here. And with that, let's see we have one more broadcast tomorrow. And I don't know if everybody knows but Mallory Steele is putting on an event through to DC. I'm going to start promoting it. It's a big conference. I can't remember it's it's called the learning exchange and it's happening with third week of this month. Huge. I think she has something like 57 sessions over three days. But she's using the DL DC platform. We'll be sending out more information about that one. That's coming up soon. It's another free one and

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