Community Showcase: Gabrielle Bayme

Luis Malbas  
Hello, everybody, welcome to the training learning and development community. Thanks for joining us today. Happy Thursday to all of you. We've got a nice group of people already in like Julie's here, Alana, Cindy Jack, Nicole, Patricia Lea, thanks for joining us. This is a member showcase. And our guest today is Gabrielle Boehm, who has been in the training learning and development community for a while. And it's interesting sort of

just watching your journey from afar, you've spoken on on TLD casts in the past and contributed lots and in different places. So it's nice that we're finally able to do a member showcase with you because I do want to learn more about your background and your journey and lnd. And then of course, share it with everybody as well. So let's just get started everyone, I do have a group of questions. If you look on the bottom of your screen, you'll see an ask a question area. I've got a dozen questions already in there. If you have any questions that you'd like to add, feel free to just drop them in there or we can or you can put them in chat as well. And I will I will grab them as I see them. But So welcome everybody. And of course welcome Gabriele. Yeah, so let's just start from the very beginning. All right, or you're currently a clo, so we've got like, a lot to cover. And it all looks so very interesting. But where did your journey into l&d Begin.

gabrielle bayme  
So I actually started in the performing arts, I was an actor, and I studied theater and undergraduate. And it's interesting because there are so many current and former performing artists who are in the fields I've come across so often. And I went to NYU, I studied theater there. And, you know, I'd always that's what I'd always wanted to do. And once I started pursuing it professionally, I'm like, wow, I really love performing. But I hate everything involved. Everything else involved with doing this professionally. I just, I just didn't like the business of show business very much.

It just, you know, every industry has its issues. But that one I'm like, I don't think I'm the right personality for that particular brand of politics and whatnot. Right? So, by the time I was sooner, I was looking for other things to do. And I did an internship, doing community based theatre, so doing workshops that community based organizations using Theatre in the arts as a tool for learning and dialogue and community engagement. And I loved that I loved the process of designing and facilitating the workshops. I loved the aha moments that you got when you would tap into something that people hadn't considered.

And I really, I'm like, wow, I think this is the direction I want to go in. So for for several years, I started, I was focused on doing work in the nonprofit sector, working with schools, universities, community based organizations, doing arts in education. So it's essentially a freelance teaching artist, right? I'm doing workshops. And during that time, of course, you know, I had a lot of student loan debt, I went to NYU borrowed most of that. And being a freelance teaching artists in nonprofits in New York City, not the best way to support yourself and pay off student loan debt. So I was always temping on Wall Street. So I was temping at the big banks like Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, mostly just answering phones and doing admin stuff. Eventually, they sent me to some corporate trainings, and I had this epiphany. I was like, that's exactly what I'm doing in the nonprofit sector. What what those the trainers are doing, only and then and then then I was like, only I think I could be more interesting. I had this little, you know, like, I think I could be less boring thing going through my mind. Right? And which is probably a little cocky of me, but it was also the maybe I can do this right. Um, so I had my temp agency start steering me towards learning and development groups within the organization they were sending me to eventually I got a temp position as a training coordinator at Morgan Stanley. And I kind of went from there. In it's very interesting, because when I did go to grad school, and when I went to grad school, I was focusing initially on arts and education, but eventually the learning part of or took the arts part where Arts is kind of a tool, but I was much more interested in the teaching and learning part. And for all of those who are transitioning teachers in the field. You know, I learned instructional design and curriculum design, the way teachers do, you know, I, you know, my big background, I did a lot of work, you know, with those of you who've read you know, Pirlo Frary. And, you know, his pedagogy of the oppressed and and I did a lot of work up political theater work, using theater games and stuff with if any of you are familiar with the Gustavo wall who, who does a lot of interactive games and theater stuff, and, and but the way I learned how to construct learning experiences really came more from an educational perspective than like, what business people are in business for. Right. But I feel like it completely was transferable into what I do now. And I'm actually really glad that I learned it that way.

Luis Malbas  
So so that acting piece, that theater piece, just helped you stand out, do you think,

gabrielle bayme  
Oh, absolutely. I feel like to this day, I use what I learned in theater school, I feel that anyone that comes from has an arts, education and background, you you see things differently, you're able to see that big picture, you're able to look at different perspectives, right? In, you know, I was in a program at NYU that wasn't just focused on acting, we also did a lot of, you know, we focused on directing, and design and dramaturgy, and all these things, right. And especially the design courses, when you talk now about like design thinking and how that's become a big thing I'm like, that's kind of how I've always been operating intuitively, because that's how, how we do it in the arts, you know, you do these iterative processes, you consider your audience you involve, you know, the community and what you're doing at least the type of theater I was doing. And so it wasn't such a novelty to me, it was like, for me, some of the new things coming out. I'm like, well, da, isn't that? Oh, I guess everyone doesn't do it that way. All right. So that's happened to me quite a few times because of that background.

Luis Malbas  
So that's fascinating, because I have heard and I've had guests come on, that have talked about how taking an improv class has helped them be better trainers. And I mean, is that something that you would recommend as well,

gabrielle bayme  
completely, completely. And I think that's the difference between being able to flex, right, so when you're working with people in terms of how they're learning, you might have this plan in place for like, Oh, this is what's gonna work great for this population for this problem. And you might learn new information that you're like, Oh, I was totally off, I gotta do this completely differently. That ability to flex and the ability to think in the moment if you're a facilitator, if you're one of the people that are also delivering, being able to pick up on the energy of the folks who are in the group and what their needs are. And, you know, if what you had planned out is completely different than the questions they're asking, Can you pivot? Can you just say, you know, what, I'm gonna throw away the plan, I'm gonna go in the other direction. And I, I'm very comfortable doing that. A lot of the other trainers that I love working with, also can do that they also have a bit of theater and arts background, right. You know, on the other hand, you know, at this, we're in my role now, I've been interacting with a lot of vendors that deliver training for our agency, and, you know, some of them have been delivering the same course the same way for 20 some years, right. And in, there's a very big difference working with some of those people where you ask them, Hey, I'd like you to focus a little bit more on this. And in there's this resistance to flexing it. All right. And so I think, you know, there's a big contrast between when professionals that are able to do that or not.

Luis Malbas  
Wow, that is that that's actually really, really interesting, like, like, poignant, I think that I'm gonna have to keep that in mind. Cuz I haven't heard that idea of flexing and improv been put together like that. And I do think that you're absolutely right. That's totally important. So now that I mean, it's so interesting that you've come from like this acting background now that you're a clo, but what are some things you would wish you had known when you started out, like in your career on this journey? Is there anything you can look back on and kind of share with us that you wish you had known back then?

gabrielle bayme  
You know, it's so interesting because I feel like I kind of learned everything organically along the way. And that was a good way for me to learn it right? I think in again, I right now, we're going through a big moment and learning individually I mean, because we have this influx of transitioning teachers coming into the field, right? Like, like, it's, it's really astounding, like, it's how many there are. And it's understandable i for a very brief time considered being a teacher, I but I was a freelance, I was a teaching artist in the public school system enough to know that I, it wouldn't work for me there. I don't do that well, with, with that level of bureaucracy, which is very funny being that I now work in the public sector, but we'll talk about that. We'll talk about that later. But it's, the people use different terms to mean the same things, right. And I remember when I came from my kind of artsy, nonprofit activism background into the corporate world, trying to kind of use that transferable skill set. And I'm still using the language of my other worlds and people in the business, like people in the corporate sector would look at me, like I, you know, had, like, you know, purple and green horns or something, because they were like, What the heck are you talking about? And it's really I wish I knew a little bit like just how to focus on learning the lingo, right? So that so that, it's like, it's speaking that language, right, being able to communicate in that language. And I think also like people who are learning this stuff from the educational sector, it's like, they use a different language. And also, when I first started out even before start voting and learning and development mode, I was doing some other admin jobs to support my other pursuits. It's like, when I was in graduate school, if those of you who are coming out of a graduate school program or academia talking like an academic, right, like, like speaking in that, like, very high level, heavy academic language is also kind of like, a turn off for a lot of people that are in the better in the corporate, you know, world. And so I think that would have helped me a little bit.

Luis Malbas  
Was there a way that how did you How were you able to, to learn the different types of lingo? I mean, like what so what sectors have you been in sounds like you've you've

gabrielle bayme  
started, like arts and education, community based work. So I did a lot of social justice work. So a lot of like the community activism work, but this was the this is the language from like, over 20 years ago, I want to say, because the language of that world is completely different than it was 20 years ago when I was in it, right. And, you know, my, my temp work to me and, like, I worked in everything from transportation to advertising media, a lot of financial services, management, consulting. When I say nonprofits, I've worked for some foundations, but mostly for arts organizations, arts organizations. And that, yeah, in corporate, it's mostly been financial services. And this is my first transition from the private sector to the public sector. And it feels like a great kind of balance between the nonprofit stuff I used to do and the corporate stuff, it's like, you know, it's, it's, it's not nonprofit, but it's still, you know, the mission is still public service, which kind of feels good to me, I feel it feels a little bit more coming back to my, my values.

Luis Malbas  
So being in these different sectors and learning the lingo, is it just embedding yourself in it and just trying to pick up on the dialogue? Or how is it that you've been able to, to?

gabrielle bayme  
Yeah, talk to people and, and for me, it was just experience and making mistakes, and just keeping my ears peeled and learning how people were talking about things and, and I think it's a lot easier now. So when I made that transition, when I had that training coordinator position that was, gosh, over 20 years ago now, probably god, yeah, I'm dating myself, I'm very Gen X. And, you know, now with things like t ildc, in your your Slack group, and there's so many with social media, there's so many easier ways to do it now. So I mean, just listening to videos and podcasts like this of people who are in the sector or area that you want to go into and listening to how they talk about it, you will pick up on it much faster than I was able to, I had to do it by just you know, my real life experience and trying to soak it in. But now you can do that, you know, online much, much easier.

Luis Malbas  
Nice, nice. Okay, so, now that you're clo and we do don't get a lot of Clos like on our on our showcases. So it's, it's great to have you here. But for the people that might be curious about this going from, you know, ISD to clo, which is something we were going to talk about, like what? How was your? What are the differences in your focus? So like, you know, for people that might be curious, like you're a clo, or people that might be that are interested in working towards being a clo? Like, can you can you talk a little bit about that?

gabrielle bayme  
Sure, sure. And before I go into it, I just want to say that there was a period in my career, where I had been a senior instructional designer and facilitator for years, and I felt like I kind of reached a ceiling. Like, there wasn't, I couldn't go higher as an instructional designer. But I liked doing instructional design and training, right. And it's like, I felt like I had to, like I had a choice, I could either become much more specialized and instruct specializing in like, one of the authoring tools, or gamification or specific topics or whatever, right. Or I could go kind of the manager clo route and, and for a long time, I resisted going to clo rep, because I was having fun doing the instructional design and training stuff. And I'm like, I don't want to manage budgets, I don't want to just delegate all the fun stuff. You know, I mean, that was kind of my mentality at the time. And, but then, as more years passed, as me staying in that, that role and being frustrated by where I was coming into the process, in terms of the learning thing, so what what was happening, I feel like instructional designers are brought in after someone's already made the decision that a training is needed for something and you're like, you're just make a training on this, whatever, right. And in the field, we all everyone talks about being an order taker, yada, yada, yada, but it's really, it's like someone's already done the needs analysis or skipped a needs analysis most likely, and decided that a training is needed. And you're asked to produce the training. And I could design a really great, engaging interactive learning experience training. And I did that for years. But then I kept having this, there's this little feeling to me like, I don't think it's making a difference. Like they all like it. I got like all it great scores on the happy sheet. But you know, are they using any of this? Like, after two weeks? Is it actually having any impact and how they work and how they do their job. And more and more, I had doubts that it was, and that didn't feel good to me, I felt like I'm spending all of this time and energy working on the stuff that in the grand scheme of things is making no difference. And that did not sit well with me. So I just said, I want to get into the conversation earlier, I want to be able to be in conversation about what the problem is we're trying to solve, and what's the best approach to solving it? And is it even a training issue? And if it is, like, what are all of the options? Training isn't the only way to help people learn. They're all other ways of doing it. And I wanted to have more decision making authority and in that space, so I, you know, after after a few more years, I went from that, like, I don't know, if I want to leave instructional design to doing it for a few years and getting more and more frustrated, like get I gotta leave because I can't, I can't do this anymore. I want to be able to feel that the work I'm doing is having an impact. So I started actively, strategically intentionally going in the CLO route. And I you know, I went from instructional designer to training lead to l&d manager to senior l&d Experience Designer Learning Experience Designer and and I was kind of in those like middle management roles. And I went really from that that last, the last position I had before this was Senior Learning Experience Designer. And then I also was a learning and performance advisor for a contract that I did. In those were the last titles and positions I had before clo. And in honestly, it would have taken me more time to get this title and to get this responsibility if I'd stayed in the private sector. Making the transition to public made it possible because it's very different, right. So the organizations that I had been working with, were very, very large had very

embedded are entrenched l&d programs already where they've been doing it the same way for many, many years. So me who I'm always kind of pushing the edge of like, what's what, what, how are things now? What is what is the most innovative thing we can do that that really is, is, is going to solve the problem, right? I'm not someone for doing something the way we've always done it. That's not me. Right? So, you know, that was what I was coming from. But this, I saw the opportunity. I mean, this is a new department, they do not have a learning and development department, they didn't have a clo, it's a brand new role, and a brand new unit, within an agency that historically hasn't had anyone focused on the strategy and vision for how to help the organization learn. And for me having that blank slate. Oh, that's exciting. Like, that's exactly what I was looking for. Because over the years, I've been digesting all of these things about what works and what doesn't. And some of my best lessons, and my best learning has come from people who were doing it wrong. Right? To just it's like, what, why are you doing it that way? And it's like, you're in your mind? It's like, this doesn't make sense. Why are we doing okay, I have to do this. Or if it doesn't make sense, what you know, in your, in your mind, you're like, yeah, if it works for me, this is how I'd be doing it. Right. And you have that you kind of tuck that away, and had all of that tucked away. And I feel like now oh, I can do those things. Super, super exciting. Right? So,

Luis Malbas  
yeah. So Gabriella, do you feel like now you're making that impact? Is that something that you've managed to achieve?

gabrielle bayme  
Well, I haven't been here that long. I've been here since February. Right? And there is and and until two weeks ago, I was the Department of one. So I was doing everything right. But now I have like three awesome interns that are helping me to them are on right now. They're awesome. So shout out to Leah and Jack who are on the call. And so that's pretty amazing. So I feel like I have set the groundwork to have the kind of impact that I'm hoping to make. And in really what it is, it's when you get into a role like this, and you're like you've been, you've kind of had your head tied behind your back. And you've kind of been like, constrained in terms of what you're allowed to do and what's possible. And then you're given like free rein, I mean, I came here just like we don't have anything, anything you do, people are going to love and it's going to be great to do what you want rather, having that freedom and that authority. It's like you want to do everything, right, you just feel like you're like, it's like, you know, kid this toy store. It's like, oh, what can I do first? What's Yeah, and it kind of trying to hold myself back and prioritize has been one of the biggest struggles. But I have the vision and we're laying the path. So. So I'll talk to you in a year, because we're actually I'm getting benchmark data to actually see how things are now that I can actually measure the impact again, so we'll actually have concrete data to see what the impact has been of my initiatives. So but again, I've never even been able to do that. Because as much as people say, Oh, we should be you know, measuring performance impact and all of those things, who actually does it? Very few of the organizations, none. None of the organizations I worked for previously do that.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah. Right.

gabrielle bayme  
Because I think in reality, a lot of large organizations see learning and development as not something necessarily that can help the business in a in a concrete way in terms of skills and abilities and focus. But they see it as something that it's like a recruitment thing. It's it's an image thing, it's, it's about optics, it's about, it's about, let us look like we have a lot of great training to attract people, let's you know, make it so people say that they have a lot of training options, but whether or not it has an impact is besides the point we just want to keep people happy and have them not complain about how they're not getting training, or how they don't have development options. If they say oh, we don't have development options, because Oh, but when you get training, right, it becomes more like a Yeah. i It's more about optics, right? Than about real impact. And, and I think that that is that, you know, that's always one of the challenges, right?

Luis Malbas  
It's exciting. It's, you know, it's gonna be great to be like, I would love to be able to talk to you a year from now and just sort of see where you're at, but sort of backing up on that a little bit. I do recall like having a conversation with you. And it did feel Like, like I was hearing, there was some frustration about you hitting your ceiling. And like sort of the direction you were going to go. And I just kind of remember at that time thinking, I wonder if she's gonna get out of l&d If she's going to do something. Was that something you were considering at all? Or? Oh,

gabrielle bayme  
I don't know, if I would entirely leave the field, you know, because I really, really love learning and develop, like, I am an l&d person through and through. I, and I have a lot of skills around it. You know, for me, there was a decision at one point, do I want to be an independent consultant, right. And it's like an I don't want to spend that much of my time selling and trying to get work. I just want to I just want to do the work, you know, and, and I made that decision. I probably entertain the idea. But there isn't anything that really I was like, This is what I want to do. I feel like there's so many options in l&d. It was more like, what industry? What environment? Do I want to do it in? Rather than if I want to do it? And I think for me, the change I needed, was that shift to public sector. Right. And that I feel like it's so different that it feels it feels very different. Right?

Luis Malbas  
No, that's really, that's helpful, too. And I'm glad that that Kim heard that too. Like she mentioned in chat that caught that as well. And, and, and so now that you're where you're at as a clo, what are you finding? What are the biggest challenges for you at this point?

gabrielle bayme  
I definitely think just the assumptions people have about what a learning function does. And, you know, the predominantly most popular view is that it's all it's about, you know, training, it's about courses and content, right? And, and I'm trying to broaden the perspective of that, right. But also, when it's kind of scope, and in the prioritizing, I feel like I'm have to cut I'm constantly having to take my word for what I want to do next with the Okay, but what, what is really needed most, and what's going to have the most impact the most quickly. And I feel like every day, I have to be reminding myself to let that be what's guiding me. Whereas before, when you're an instructional designer or a manager, you're you're generally assigned projects or tasks, and you just execute on those, right? And usually, you might have a few when you prioritize within them. But I'm trying to prioritize like, big initiatives, like what am I focusing on first. And also, you know, having to to learn a lot when you're a department have one I mean, what was interesting is that my first big initiative here isn't a training solution, or a learning solution, even it is a knowledge base, it is a hub, where all of the existing institutional knowledge, all of the current resources, training, documentation, all of that can reside in one place, because they didn't have that. And that was causing all kinds of issues, because there was stuff they had, that people didn't even know about. And I feel like that's something that came up in, you know, also, the last contract job I did is that companies are really bad at knowledge management generally. And that causes a lot of issues that often people are like, Oh, they need more training, it's like, they just need to be able to access the information they need easily and more quickly, right, that would do a huge thing to helping the performance, rather than starting with training, right? So we've been we've been laying down that network, I've built a whole, you know, environment on SharePoint. And I, it's, yeah, we're going through all the existing stuff, we're going to be filling in stuff that doesn't exist, we're going to be creating more options, but but that first thing, I'm like, Well, I'm really doing the job right now of like, you know, an information officer or a knowledge, someone who works in knowledge management rather than l&d right now. Because the organization we don't have someone who focuses on knowledge management, right. So, so that that was really interesting for me, but it was such a glaring, clear need, that it's like, we need this, this. This is what has to happen first, that that was something that became very, very clear to me.

Luis Malbas  
Wow, Gabriella, you know, it's so you just seem so innovative and really ambitious. And I've only got a couple questions left to ask right now.

gabrielle bayme  
I only see Kim asked curating in what way So, so what we're doing is is I have these folders of 1000s of existing document, some presentations and videos from different task forces within the agency. And and trying to go through that and organize it and make sense of it and find out what is crucial and helpful, particularly to people like new hires, right. So we're curating from that, and a lot of that has to be redone, because I don't know, I mean, different organizations have different bad habits in terms of their knowledge. This particular organization, their bad habit is, you know, first of all, everything is a PowerPoint, whether or not it makes sense, great, or it's a long, long, long manual, right? And let's be honest, no one's gonna read all that. No one's gonna, like, nobody's gonna look for a simple answer in a 65, page manual. Nobody's going to do that. Right? And so it's kind of like, okay, can we pick up the stuff that's actually important out of these massive, massive documents and files, right. So that's one thing but also curating from from other places like LinkedIn learning YouTube, you know, Tiktok has some of the best like Excel how to stuff out there, you know, wherever, wherever we have, or I mean, I'm, I'm looking at all kinds of different sources. And we're, we're trying to pull that together. And in the biggest, the biggest thing I feel like I am, it's like, it lnd is gonna be it's like a filter, a filter of getting what's important, and like cutting out all the noise, all of the noise that exists in all of the other resources that they have.

Luis Malbas  
Wow, no, I totally agree. How fascinating now, the one point that I kind of want to wrap up with that you had mentioned, because you had talked about going from, from from ISD, to clo, and then going from training to performance. Just talk about that a little bit as we close.

gabrielle bayme  
Yeah. And I think that actually, that was what helped me decide to stay in learning and development. Because when I reached that ceiling, and I felt like I wasn't having an impact. It's like, okay, well, does learning and development, just not having an impact on organizations. But then, you know, I feel like there's this little it's almost like a secret club or subgroup of people in l&d that are, I don't know, if you want to call them performance focused or focused on on the performance consulting side of things and have this philosophy that you should start with dissecting the problem. And be very clear on what the outcome is and designed towards that outcome. You know, very task based focusing on, you know, resources before courses, you know, curation before creation, all these things you hear, right? But saying, Okay, if we can analyze what the root causes are, to these problems, there's actually a method and methodology we can we assess what is the best type of solution, what really is a training solution where people just don't know how to do something, they need the skills, or they know how to do it, but they don't get enough practice. So they're not good at it. So how can we help them practice or whatever? Or, okay, no, there's, there's an issue around motivation. There's an issue that they don't have the right systems or tools to do this. And it's like, okay, that it's like I can, I can eliminate the stuff where I was wasting my time, because it's not a training problem, right? Like, there's a way to get out the stuff we're learning solutions really can have an impact. And I do think learning solutions can have an impact, where, you know, we're, you're clear that that's what the need is. And so what when I when I learned and started learning more about that process, I was like, yes, there is a way where what I'm doing can make a difference. And that's how I want to work. That's how I want to work. And that's the struggle was, you know, in the middle manager roles I was in, it's like, I was in organizations where, well, they've been doing it the same way for a long time. So like, I wanted to, like dig in into kind of long term projects where I really dug into the root causes and it was able to do like a longer kind of consulting process with my internal clients where, but really, they just wanted me to just make training courses, you know, in there was this me like, Okay, this isn't, I need to find somewhere I need to find a different role or different place to do this.

Luis Malbas  
I love it. Oh, my gosh, Gabriella, you're so passionate about this. I feel like it would be just great to meet up and be able to talk to you. I'm sure like a group of us we would just get so much love to talk about this. It's so wonderful. I got to wrap it up, though. But I thank you so much for doing this. No case. And I want to say even with your interns if they want to come in, I'd love to hear like, what their how, you know how you motivate them. And, and, and are probably mentoring them at this point because I'm sure interning for you is just going to be a great adventure for them.

gabrielle bayme  
I hope so. I try to make it interesting. But let me tell you, this is not a typical internship for them. They're not just doing like busy work and grunt work. They're like doing the heavy lifting, and they're doing an awesome job at it. So sounds very, very happy. But I just want to also anyone who wants to further have a conversation, I've been looking for people to discuss all this performance stuff with online I feel like I haven't, I feel like most of the lnd groups are instructional design focused and I really want to find a community where people are talking about the form and stuff. And also, you know, I have a lot of advice for transitioning teachers. So if anyone wants to, you know, get together pick my brain on that I'd be happy to Oh, I

Luis Malbas  
love it. There's so many folks that are looking for advice from from somebody like you and do read like Bob Moser and Conrad Gottfredson. Okay, absolutely.

gabrielle bayme  
I'm big fans of them five moments of need. Big huge Kathy Marfan. Also, next step, Nick Shackleton Jones stuff is really, really helpful about the, you know, difference between education and and in learning. So yeah, there's there's a lot of people who've really influenced me, but

Luis Malbas  
Greg, Yeah, cuz I know, Bob and Khan had a they had a community going. I don't know if it's still

gabrielle bayme  
Yeah, it's I part of that, but it's been really, I went I looked at the other day. And the last, you know, the last comment was from something I wrote last September, so it's not just not very active. So I'm looking for something. It's a little.

Luis Malbas  
Right. Right, right. So yeah, interesting. Gabriele. Thank you so much. Thanks for doing this today. And everyone. Thanks for joining. I want to remind you, we have aI DC 22. Coming up next week. That's the accessible and inclusive design conference. I just check. We have like over 600 people registered for it already. It's free. So make sure you sign up, you can go to the AI dc.com to to register. It's the program is complete. It's looking absolutely wonderful. And so I think that's going to be another great event that, that CLDC has the pleasure of hosting. So hopefully we'll see everybody in that one. And with that, thanks again, Gabriella. Thanks, everybody. Thank you so much. All right. Thank you. Bye

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