Beyond the Buzz: Danielle Wallace on Practical AI in Learning & Development

Luis Malbas  
Hello, everybody. Welcome to the training learning and development community. Thanks for joining us today. They know we have some live folks in the audience already. Thank you so much for being here. Lisa is here. Lan. Nice to see it. Topeka. Emily Senya. Jordan, Elena. Yeah. Lots more registered. Cindy. Excellent. All right. So um, we have a guest today, and we're gonna be talking about like, the pretty much the hottest topic out there in. Gosh, not just l&d, but also just in technology in general. I know for myself, I am just constantly bombarded with, with with conversations and ideas and discussion about AI. And you know, kindly enough, Danielle Wallace is here to talk a little bit about her expertise in, in practical AI in l&d. And let's see, I don't know, Danielle, what it was, oh, we were sort of discussing topic talking with the community a little bit. And we had gone over a few different topics and AI is something that you've been following. And it's something that I love talking about, as many of you know, I worked for a tech publisher and called O'Reilly and O'Reilly actually just does. I mean, right now, we that's pretty much most of the conversation that that we're covering is on the impact of AI and business and the technological landscape, and so that it's always in my universe, artificial intelligence. And so I love talking about this stuff. And so, Danielle, we're going to talk to you about the impact on l&d. And can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Just background even with Li with AI in general?

Danielle Wallace  
Yes, I'm Danielle Wallace. so delighted to be here. I am the chief learning strategist of beyond the sky custom learning, where our focus is really on creating better learning experiences, period, full stop. My own mission statement is to help elevate the learning and development industry. So I speak at all the major conferences throughout North America, I love that just as a way to help. I have a monthly podcast. And they also have a community of practice as relates to AI, and learning and development. And then our own side, we're able to integrate some of that into the solutions we're providing for our clients. But overall, I'm really passionate about sharing and helping our CO collective community and here on the teal VC community to really be able to navigate and keep our eyes open for the right paths, the right opportunities to think about when we look at AI.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, and it is something that everybody's looking at nowadays. I know that just a couple months ago, we did an event that I called the AI labs, and we had some just absolutely incredible sessions in that one. So many, I mean, I still get messages in my inbox with people that have questions about it, have attended it, and just, you know, love the event overall. And even then, I think it was just maybe in September that we did that one and even then the technology has changed. I mean, it's still I mean, Chad GPT four is, is now the standard on the on the open AI side. And back then I think it was had just been released. And it's definitely the most powerful one that that people are using now. In fact, I was just reading something this morning, Danielle, before we got on. And that chat, GBT four is seemingly acting lazy, because it's the holidays. So the answers that catch up to T four is are giving right now are kind of like our typical to like people that are sort of checking out a little bit for the holidays, which I thought is pretty. Pretty strange and and interesting. So yeah, but we're not lazy. And I want to learn more about what you are thinking when it comes to, to AI integration into l&d. What are you seeing out there? Yeah,

Danielle Wallace  
so it's been really interesting through the community of practice that I've spoke with 1000s of people, as we've had this monthly community of practices help virtually, where we are at now is that evolution, we're in a different place than we were the beginning of the year. But there is still this sentiment of from the l&d community that I don't know what this is. But it's shocking. I don't want to know what AI is. I don't want to take my jobs. That's what we have on one side right right right now still. And the other side we also have the other ground where there's a group of people who are frustrated, like I can't do anything, my company doesn't allow me to do anything. So I'm just going to like, wait this out for a bit. And then the third group we have is those who are either both ideating, whether that's on their own, not through their own enterprise, through their work accounts. Or they're on the vendor side where there's been more freedom, or there's people who are just really passionate, and they are trying to break the boundaries and try to ideate further. So these three groups that we're seeing right now, and this has implications on how things might work with AI going forward, and has applications today, whether or not you are somebody who's within an enterprise maybe has member handcuffs, or whether you're somebody that's on vendor side, or an organization that has more freedom. So that's what I'm seeing in general as the three big buckets. Yeah, even despite everything that's happened this year. That's

Luis Malbas  
very interesting. I just created a poll that should be visible. I don't recall exactly on this interface, how it works. But there is, you might see on the right side of your screen, a little icon that looks like it's a poll, and I'm asking, Are you using AI in your work now? One response so far? Yes. Thank you. If, if those of you out there that are live, if you could put that in? Yeah, I've gotten one note as well. So that's pretty interesting. Um, what I mean, how about you, Daniel, your experience with AI? Like, What? What? How are you using it? Yeah,

Danielle Wallace  
so we are even using this so busy in charge up to since our last fall. And AI more broadly, we're using in the number of different ways, whether it's the talking head, Avatar, AI videos, Cynthia Colossian, the ID, deed and others that we've been using for a while, which is interesting, even there's a whole nother tangent that that goes down into. So that's an easy foray that many people can get into. Okay, I need to. Hopefully, it's in a structurally sound video. Again, I want to elevate our industry. Secondly, we've been using chat up T into both a learning experiences, oh, I can actually put in the chat, I've got a example of that, where we were actually able to integrate chat GPT, in with storyline, actually, to create fully customized learning experiences. So this provides either 100% coaching feedback that's directly related to that individual, or this other example is feedback on a scenario. So those are fun, different ways to help with it and find different ways to try to see what's different to what's out there. And then internally, on our own side, the third thing we're doing is I've put in all of my internal processes and policies, because nobody's gonna meeting them. Nobody uses them, they say they're too hard to navigate to find, which is true. So we've put that our own proprietary information into a, we did it storyline, you can do it in many different tools. But that sits behind our firewall, so allows my team members to be able to look at what is the beyond the sky accessibility policy? What is beyond the sky process for a French translation? So pull from our own info, which took me a long time to create my own proprietary info. And I'm able to pull in from the internet chat GBT more broadly for use applique, whether that track French translation process not only are beyond the Skype policy, but it also pulls in more broadly, what are things you should be looking for, in general, when doing French translation? So that's been a nice way to help solve my own pain point within our own organization. Very

Luis Malbas  
interesting, you know, and this whole idea ever since I've been in l&d, and it's, you know, it's been a long time almost a couple of decades. You know, LLP has been notorious for being behind the times when it comes to adopting technologies, right. Like, I've heard it from IT teams like saying, Yeah, you guys are typically about 10 years behind. Yeah. And you know, so are you seeing that too, Danielle is just like, that's just the way that it is. So my whole

Danielle Wallace  
goal was with starting this community of practice early this year was to help learning and development not be behind so we all collectively can be there. We could so easily be there the forefront and when I start from my own experience, I used to be in marketing. So I was a marketing executive at Procter Gamble and PepsiCo. And there I noticed love things we did in the marketing world. We did and learning development eight years later, eight years. Yeah. So I naively At the beginning of the year, I could help learning development, you know, try to get a better breast. No. So what I am seeing is i We are behind this technology moves so fast, I just do it. I'm so excited people are listening, because the technology moves so fast, that it's easy to get way excited to get really behind. And this technology is a bit faster than some of the other initiatives and learning development has been behind on and I really, I really don't want us to lose our strategic importance in the industry. Right? Yeah, that's actually another fear and potential trend I'm seeing.

Luis Malbas  
No, it's true. I'm gonna go and show this comment from from Rubina. RUBIN is asking as a government employee, she's currently not allowed to use chat GPT. And if anybody else is experiencing that restriction, and I think, you know, I've heard that before. And one of the things that I would suggest Rubina is just like, even well, you know, although you can't use the tool at your work, you know, just on a personal level, use it, I know that even for me, I will go in and, like, for instance, I'm coaching a fourth grade basketball team right now. And I have to figure out my rosters, like before, every every game on the weekend, and, and separate playing time, and I input like, all my, my players names and their positions and chat GPT. And I asked Chet GPT, to divide playing time up between them so that it was strategically advantageous to us. I just used like, kind of probably a way too complicated prompts. And it did it for me. And it's, you know, it's fantastic. I mean, what are your suggestions, Danielle?

Danielle Wallace  
So I want to strongly echo what we've been saying that came through very clearly through the community practice. Early in the year, people like in government was on the call, they like these big community calls, like Oh, my God, oh, my god, we'd have a policy Oh, my God, let's stop, stop, stop, clap it down. They did. Let's create the policy, we can use chat GPT to create the policy, ironically enough policies in place now. And now everybody's like, Okay, I can't do anything. What I'm seeing now is, organizations depending on which, which one are starting to roll out parts of even Chachi PT, whether it's church CBT, integrated into Bing, so I've been called pilot like there's there is this is starting to be happening now, like in the past month. And I'm seeing people aren't aware of it within the learning development. So one thing I'd say practically to everybody is, check to see because there's probably some things that might be rolling out that you're just not aware of. I've seen that across many, many enterprises right now. Like in the past month. The second thing was just totally accurate, we are saying is the most progressive organizations that progressive individuals I've seen, they're like, Hey, I can't use this at all. We're get it. No problem. Can't get it. I work, but I'm still gonna use this on my own time. So those links I put through, you probably have these cool interactions, you probably can't use at work. Got it? You like literally, I tested a few companies, you can get into the storyline, because storyline. So you're allowed you storyline but then it actually doesn't work. Because it's your enterprises block access to check up, which is good. So kudos to your organization for falling through on their own policy. But that doesn't negate the ability that we have as our collective onus as learning and development professionals to continue to upskill ourselves. And I see this as so many people who are really excelling in their careers. One person, one woman in our last meeting practice, she said, Yeah, I'm doing this on my weekends. I'm testing I'm seeing what's possible, my weekends, and her stuff is phenomenal. Yeah. So it's it, there's still some opportunities to stay abreast see what's happening. Definitely.

Luis Malbas  
And, you know, the thing is, is you could I mean, I don't know if any of you out there use the Microsoft Edge browser. That has been pretty much integrated into it, but you can use I mean, I can recall exactly as chat GPT integrated into being is that was the way that it works. But

Danielle Wallace  
enterprise enterprise rollout comes at different stages. Yeah. But for many enterprises, they have allowed that recently.

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, yeah. Well, like Stephen saying is that's the easiest way to access it because it feels like it you know, it could potentially just you know, it's sort of like, almost like doing a Google search but you're using Microsoft Edge. And you're getting these results that are absolutely amazing. I'm gonna I'm for I'm just going to link the TL DC AI labs recording page. I think a lot of these can only be accessed by members but I just to just a reference to your Sanya asking There was a session on there that into that showed how to integrate storyline into ChaCha btw into storyline, it was called I'm using AI for personalized feedback on a large scale. Let me paste that in there. And you can check something like that out. There are people like even on YouTube that are sharing this information that are showing you like, you know how to integrate chat GPT. And then of course, I didn't look at your resources, Danielle, but they you know, that look fantastic, then. And thank you for letting folks really good. Yeah, I

Danielle Wallace  
guess I wanted to pick up on that. Because those examples which have been sharing, Louis, is the whole idea of there's two different types right now of practical use of learning and development. On the one side, it's improving your workflow. So I mentioned talking head videos, great, I can create videos quicker, hopefully they're structurally sound, I can create a script faster for something I can create quiz questions, provided I'm not using proprietary data and I have authorization to do so. So but these are all ways to make my work as an instructional designer quicker, got it, still producing the same output. Then we also have this other bubble of pieces where we're actually more elevating the learner experience. So when those examples are shared, the learner is interacting directly with chat, GBT litter is directly there. The late radioman is was also fabulous at promoting this idea of having learning by doing with chat CBT. So forget this idea of this. Having Learning Development be the guardians of what, you know, the learners experiencing through it. Like in these examples I shared No, no, just have the learners interact directly, and create a truly better experience that I can't do. Otherwise, I can't, I can't provide 100% custom coaching feedback, like when those links, so you come up with any problem, I give you a coaching advice, I can't do that. I can't program that in storyline, I just can't do that. But with Chad GPT, I suddenly could. So that provides a way that we can Springboard when we're practical and more mind blowing uses in the future. It's true.

Luis Malbas  
And you know, and ultimately, I think the instructional designers learning experience designers, the ones that are familiar with using AI and have, you know, just even basic skills, being able to use AI to do their work are going to have just a leg up over everybody else, the folks that can't you sort of have to, you're going to need this skill. And so even if you don't have access to it at work, just use it on a personal basis. And, you know, to find to find solutions, and just like googling stuff, you know, way back when, when we first started using Google, I think that, you know, start looking at using AI to find solutions to problems you might have,

Danielle Wallace  
and are looking to chat as well. So there's definitely one to say all of us should hopefully take the challenge to learn on our own. And then there's also proliferation of tools out there. So articular has announced their AI integration, which basically is creating scripts, it's making your videos. So integrating in talking head avatar videos, basically, that camp I mentioned, you know, making your own workflow faster. And there's many tools out there right now, like there's many, the thinking effects.com has a nicely curated list of chat of tools for learning and development use, they've already been created for our use and lnd. So you'll see my God, there's a lot there that can make my work as an instructional designer faster. On the flip side, I will also give us warning there is our non learning and development counterparts are also very abreast of this. So those are the ones that I hear and speak to them, they can yell, this is great. I can use Ghana, I can use all these different tools to be able to create slides. And then I got training. I put in a prompt. It spits out images and lots of text on the screen. And then I've got training there. They're so excited, and I can put a quiz at the end. They're so excited. Meanwhile, oh and likewise with the talking cat videos like rage. I can put all my compliance text into this talking head video and I've got training and the pretty quiz at the end. This is fantastic. Because when I work with my people and learning and development, they always are so slow and keep asking me questions. I just want them to create right slides for me and just be done with. So meanwhile all of us collectively within the industry of learning and development hope fleabites raises are attendez to be Oh, not only where's my role in this, but what you're producing, they are producing that is a subpar quality. That's the risk I see is this is wonderful proliferation of tools are out there, which everybody has access to not just learning development, which is good. But the downfalls. I'm seeing this, I'm seeing this. It allows subject matter experts to create what will be a proliferation of very boring talking head videos, we're gonna see them all at the same and be boring, not instructionally sound interesting might come through with other tools that are out there definitely with the PowerPoint slides, or PowerPoint, per se, but it's the slide generation. And there's so many other tools that they're they're great. And I can use Murph or Wilson labs or 11 labs to create AI voice narration as a subject matter. I'd be like, I've seen this already, like good, will you put that on topic of our slides, and then we've got elearning, because we've got PowerPoint slides with this voice reading them out. Hopefully, I said industry a little bit worried about that. Yeah, this is now our challenge. I challenge everybody to get familiar yourself. So you can be adapted happiness conversations, to know what maybe your own people within your organization may be doing. And then be also then just rendering that case to be that trusted learning advisor to ensure that you're still continuing to have the right conversations to steer that l&d ship for a better learning experience. Right,

Luis Malbas  
right. And I think everyone should realize too, is, you know, the output that you're getting from AI isn't like, it's not something that you know, you can't edit and I mean, for the most part, I would say that a lot of things that I that I produce using AI, I have to customize myself and turn it into something that is more appropriate for what I want like is just a lot of times, it's just simply a brainstorming tool for me. You know, even those rosters for those kids that I had to create, you know, there were some things that were wrong with it, and I just had to, you know, spend like another half an hour trying to make sure that it was right. And I do that, you know, do that type of thing regularly, but it does really, really work very, very well for coming up with, with with with excellent ideas that you might not have been able to produce otherwise, you know, and

Danielle Wallace  
that's what we're seeing. So I had another webinar session where I went through some of the tools that are out there that are all the hype really went to the reality, the reality is many of them are much slower, much clunkier than they should be in the future, though, I'll still stick with them, because I think they've got a future glide path to be easier, more consumer friendly. That mentioned all the different slide creations, those, I'm not sure that will be structurally sound, but to watch out there. And then there's also going beyond some of the hype. There's the ideas, which at this point, this is December 2023, where there's some really cool ideas of what's possible, but we're currently lacking the easy means of achieving that at the speed that the learner expects. There's a lot of really cool things we could do. But I can't achieve it at the consumer grade experience that I need to like really integrating, for example, avatars to replace me have a conversation. Yeah, I have an avatar of myself. I can't use for you to have a conversation with me right now. Like I can't do that within the time of what would be a normal you know, conversation you hearing from me. So that's the other thing that there is a disconnect between currently today the hype of what's possible, right? versus what we can do. Although I love that fact that we could still keep making future forward and there are things we should keep on our radar because it's happening things are happening so fast. Yeah. What

Luis Malbas  
are some like give me like something that is that you love that you love using AI for that is like really sort of entry level that you can rely on something you know, just something that if you know someone like Rubina who doesn't might not use it at work, but you can go in and might be able to produce something using you know, whatever AI technology to

Danielle Wallace  
look up to what is the personal use case? So I many times per day and I'm trying to get immediate tech solutions. This is this is could be useful people in the personal life and their home computers. So I need to know exactly an amusing thing AI for that. So I want immediate answers on how to troubleshoot this specific instance of how I'm here with my team. So the audio like I need an incident right now, I don't have time to read through all these blogs, I don't have time to Google this. I just want the answer, like, tell me the five steps. That's it. So I use it for tech issues, constantly, constantly. So that's like a nice use. And because I'm using the Microsoft suite, I'm purposely using Microsoft Bing AI, because the answers are really, really good. I guess no need I would ever Google this again, I just want my answer. So that's the one use I would say, for people on their home use if you for learning and development use, I would say, if you have the ability is to one if you have the ability to use. Now, I'm gonna give you an example. For those who maybe have some more restrictions, as I say, if you have the ability to put in data, but most often we don't, then I could say it's can be really effective for quiz questions. And creating quiz questions that you even at different levels. So creating at a university level versus a grade five level that really, really, really nicely. Even if you can't use it for work, use to create quiz questions, it can be useful to give any people who need to study to quiz themselves. And especially we did this for English book, there's such a wealth of great knowledge out there, the responses and the depth of them are amazing. And they for just a brilliant study tool. And then if you are allowed to for work, it becomes really, really quick and easy. The second thing I'd say if you can't use it for actual work use that with because the data that you're using, then I would say definitely use it as the idea starter for scenario. Hopefully, within many of our learning solutions, we collectively are using scenarios because at least kind of approximates what somebody might be doing in real life. It's a great idea to have put in a prompt like, what is that scenario for throw me, an instructional designer provide me a scenario for this instance, where a customer is walking into a bank and they want they were going to have a difficult conversation. Use that as a starting point to have that idea. And you're not even putting anything proprietary there. It's like it's that's kind of generic. So that that can be a good use for anybody who wants to use it for actual

Luis Malbas  
Yeah, yeah. And then of course, you can, you know, manipulate it as you need to just like, whatever the response is, I know for myself, one thing that's become really, really useful is for instance, after we wrap up here, I will probably download this video, and then I will I'll I use otter.ai. I've used it for years to be able to get my you know, to output my transcripts. And then I'll output that transcript into PDF format. And then I will have aI chat GPT do a summary of our conversation. And I can say, you know, if I want it in, in three paragraphs, I mean, in three sentences, if I want it in one sentence, you know, it, it'll it'll give me, you know, just a variety of options. And that's really, really helpful when I'm wanting to share that, you know, Danielle, and I talked about AI. And here's the summary of what we discussed. Now, I would say most of the time, I have to change what Chad GPT is outputting because it might not feel like it's my style, or it isn't covering exactly what I want. But it really is an excellent starting point. For me, you know, pretty much every time you need to be able to output things. Yeah.

Danielle Wallace  
Likewise, even for those who are not within an enterprise, let's say who had maybe or have the ability, there's so many tools, we use Firefly and mikake. That creates that all automatic summary for you gives you the next steps. That technology is improving. Again, like all these technologies and the thinking effect.com So many of them there. They I find in general they are they've improved since the beginning of the year. So not all there, I'm still going to stick with them all because I'm in use many, many tools. I'm a big believer in how they will be maybe a year from now. And it provides us all collectively with a way to continually get up to speed. The other thing I would say is useful for anybody to try to do. Again, this can be work related, if you're allowed or could not be work related. But you can also feel with nonproprietary info resists. I tell chat GBT to be a certain persona. So I need to chat up to you. You're my you're my executive coach. I give it some parameters. This is and then I asked her this issue I'm facing what should I be thinking of? What should I do? And you can get coaching feedback that way. It's pretty cool. We've also used it to try to have a five why's conversation so one of my team to practice using the five why's and like I I don't have time to meet everybody use chat TBT. So these chats up to pretend to be in this case their client, so they can practice critical thinking. Yeah,

Luis Malbas  
yeah. I mean, a lot of Yeah, absolutely. It's, and it's one of those things to where, you know, go at it, we're trying to figure out what it can't do, you know, because for the most part, I feel like it's been almost limitless and capability. And it's, I haven't run into a lot of situations where I haven't been able to get a response that was unusable. For the most part, I've been able to, you know, to really take advantage of the things that AI produces so. So that's been really fascinating for me, as somebody who has been working with technology for a really long time, just how effective it is. And consistent it is with with output. I just don't recall ever working with something that was like, you know, that was as productive as it actually is. And that's one of the things is I think that the organizations that are integrating AI into their workflows are going to, are going to be the ones that are going to float to the top versus the ones that aren't, there's just yeah, I'm

Danielle Wallace  
so seeing that right now. This I'm seeing that those organizations with people's beginning of the year within our community of practice, testing, trying things now where they are, and where they're taking their organizations, and I'm even talking large organizations like really large organizations, pretty exciting to see now what they're doing integrate AI and chatbots, like, like really get charged up to going. Even getting more and more immersive on that. It's pretty neat to think what is possible, with the right mindset from the start to maybe plant those seeds to see what's possible in the future. And all of these ideas are very much like easy first steps to collectively get our feet wet. Right? See

Luis Malbas  
AI? Yeah, yeah. So then yeah, I'm going to ask you two things. Before we wrap up here. One, could you put a link to your community so that if people you know, want to participate? I mean, I'm a huge supporter of communities in general, I think that that is how we're going to kind of survive a lot of this and is, is by joining communities online and helping each other learn, I think it's a huge thing being able to do to participate in those types of things. And then it wouldn't be a an end a year broadcast. If I didn't ask you, what do you think for 2024? Like, where do you see l&d and AI? Come in the coming year?

Danielle Wallace  
I see. I'll tell you my vision. But I'll have an ask that goes on this for everybody listening. So my vision is two parts vision is this propelled need of a proliferation of a lot of bad training, driven by AI created by subject matter experts. So that's the caution. Another Hi, this is us, we are able to hear collectively Learning Development circumvent that, to stop that to actually create effective learning solutions by ourselves first getting ahead of it. So there's a cautionary tale with a strong rallying cry to hey, let's gather join the community. Let's learn from each other, and let's collectively help elevate this industry. Right?

Luis Malbas  
Right. So 2024 Looks like a lot of it is going to be focused on adoption. And probably I mean, we, it seems like we have more than enough technology to think about for a long time, but I think 2024 is going to be a lot about adoption. And I do want to mention with CLDC I, you know, I want to figure out a way to integrate more, sort of maybe working cohorts into into what we do as a community, because I know that I'm so curious about it, that I would love to learn how to do things better, you know, by learning from others, as well as like sharing what I know about it, because I use I definitely use AI like daily so that's something that is going to be integrated into into stuff that we do here too. So yeah, lan i You know, and and a lot of what, like I really want to learn how to how to make images and I've definitely played with it I know with the Microsoft Edge you know, being AI is integrated with Dali now, which is an open open AI product and you can you know, output things and look at them, but a lot of them just are not quite, they're not what I'm really looking for. So, and I use the AI features in Canva but there's just lots of stuff that that I get to play with and I'd love to be able to share that with everyone. So and I do have in the slack group there is an AI channel that's in there. I can't remember what it's called. I think it's just called the AI labs channel. So if if you if you're a part To the slack group to the chat.us, you can go there, look for that channel. And I'm going to regularly post stuff in there about about AI, especially as I get it from, from O'Reilly, which is a really, really high level company for, for discussing that stuff. And so with that, Danielle, where can people find you? Can you put your LinkedIn profile and just

Danielle Wallace  
lastly, we'd love to connect. I'm super passionate about elevating learning and development industries. So we'd love to continue the conversation share more excited that collectively, we could actually achieve something pretty darn amazing in this industry.

Luis Malbas  
I love it. I love it. You have any speaking gigs coming up?

Danielle Wallace  
Yes, I'll be at Tech learn at Tech learn and then I add ice and a bunch of other things in between. So happy to be able to see me buddy live or virtually in the meantime,

Luis Malbas  
where's definitely this year? I mean, in 2024 is

Danielle Wallace  
in Los Angeles, in LA.

Luis Malbas  
Very interesting. Yeah. Have to take a look at that and see.

Danielle Wallace  
It's good. All right. I love this. Thank you so much. So get this conversation.

Luis Malbas  
Thanks for taking the time to be with us, Danielle and everybody. Really appreciate you attending. And with that next week, we'll have another broadcast. It'll probably be the last one of the year before we break for the holidays and take a little bit of time off. I do want to mention also though we have an event coming up in January, to transitioning to l&d event for folks that are just moving into into l&d. If you're somebody who just beginner and intermediate stuff, I think that it's going to be a great, excellent conference, we've done at least three of them in the past. You want to learn more about it or just sort of see the recordings, you can go to tea to ld.com. Let me paste that in there. So you can take a look at what that event is like I think those are some free recordings. And with that, I'm going to go ahead and close out our session. We'll see everybody next time. Thanks again, Danielle. Thank you so much. All right. Bye bye.